I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

[astjp2]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

I am getting feedback about the Stewarts system becoming splotchy when it gets wet and looking like crap after a few rain storms....that is why I am recommending the Stitts. Tim

[PA1195]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

I am getting feedback about the Stewarts system becoming splotchy when it gets wet and looking like crap after a few rain storms....that is why I am recommending the Stitts. Tim

Some local planes have experienced lifting or the formation of bubbles between the silver and color topcoat with Stewarts (not sure why; not my planes). The base blue/green colored glue adhesion and silver coat are reported to be excellent and make for great quick surface repairs on cracks, or for installing inspection rings. Actually I have some on mine as a temporary experiment in our temperature extremes. So far no issues.

Gary

[Tom G]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

Guys, I know ceconite works fine do these other systems have any real advantages over it? I remember when ceconite came out in the sixties everyone said it would last indefinitely. My plane had one recover in 1966 and in 1993 it was still good. The ceconite put on in 1993 is still good now. Maybe if i do recover that is the way to go. At this rate a recover done with it now will outlast me!

[Robert Lees]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

Stitts, proven and affordable. Figure about 4.5K for the materials. Labor is what the major costs are. Tim

I agree wholly, and disagree, partly. Labour is pretty much 2/3 on PF, because there are 7 coats for Poly-Fiber and 14 for Randolph. A lot less spraying time, plus it is not combustible.

I do both (according to the customer's request) and they get charged accordingly. I'll give you all two guesses which is cheaper for the customer! The main reason for PF "mistrust" (if that's the word) is that recoverer's don't know to heat the fabric to 350F. Because they don't have the PF Manual, they think it's like dope, and are therefore in breach of FAA Regulations.

I have seen Oratex here in the UK upon an Auster; but it's my only experience of it so far. I think the product is fine, but the German salesmanship at Oshkosh last year was dire! They need some English-speaking sales folk to promote it.

[3Dreaming]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

Most all covering systems today use a Dacron fabric, including Ceconite. The real difference is the materials that are applied to the fabric. The dope process that normally goes along with the Ceconite fabric is very flammable both during and after the covering process. Some of the other systems are much better in this respect. Two that were mentioned earlier were Poly Fiber, formerly Stits, and Stewarts. I have no experience with the Stewarts system, but I have had good luck with Poly Fiber.

[Robert Lees]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=46838

The above link from 2012, shows how rapidly fire spreads in oil-soaked dope.

If dope were invented today, it would have a hard time being approved.

Edit: I found a video: You need to click on the "Watch on Your Tube" link, bottom right hand corner. It's only one minute long.

[Scott]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

an additional and important disadvantage of the ceconite process is that the dope continues to shrink throughout its life. There are several areas of the Taylorcraft where the continued shrinking causes damage.... wing and aileron root ribs and aileron spars come to mind. Wood fuselage forms on top and bottom of the fuselage also suffer.

[astjp2]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

Stitts is not as flammable as ceconite, think of ceconite as gunpowder being sprayed onto the fabric...Tim

[N96337]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

Guys, I know ceconite works fine do these other systems have any real advantages over it? I remember when ceconite came out in the sixties everyone said it would last indefinitely. My plane had one recover in 1966 and in 1993 it was still good. The ceconite put on in 1993 is still good now. Maybe if i do recover that is the way to go. At this rate a recover done with it now will outlast me!

Ok...time to straighten out the thread already....haha
Stitts IS Polyfiber. Some people call the system "Stitts" after the original owner/inventor, Ray Stitts. Polyfiber does NOT support combustion. If you have a fire going, and you throw some fabric with the Polyfiber system on it, the Polyfiber will not keep burning unless a flame is directed on it. If you take the Polyfiber covered fabric out of the flame, it will QUIT burning. If you use the Polyfiber system, you have two directions to go with topcoat. Polytone is the same vinyl based product that the under layers of the system. It's much less toxic than the Aerothane topcoat, but less durable. That being said, there are plenty of Polytone jobs out there that have made it well past 20 years and look just as good as the day they were done. It's easily repaired and applied. Aerothane (as well as Ranthane, which is legal to use as a topcoat on Polyfiber) are both polyurethane paints and are catalyzed with an isocyanate. You need a pressure, remote breathing system and proper body protection to apply them, as well as the proper filters upon the exit of your paint booth. It's poison, and a very dangerous one, if you're not protected properly. Polyfiber is a great system, very tolerant of sloppy workmanship, and a far leap ahead in terms of safety over ANY of the dope based systems!!

Stewarts has a few people that have messed up their application and are having problems. It's plain and simple....I've used it since the 90's and never had a failure or problem that I didn't create myself. I was a part owner of the system for a few years, and the tech rep for the system for a few years, and it amazed me how people can not follow simple directions. They'll say they have followed them to the letter, but when you start digging into it, they haven't. It's a fantastic system, and a much safer and flexible system than any of the solvent borne systems out there. Being waterborne, the polyurethane topcoat is MUCH SAFER to use, and requires much less protection than it's solventborne counterparts, as the isocyanate is much less hazardous when it has a source of water in the mix already. It still needs you to protect yourself, but does not require a fresh air pressure breathing source. It's waterborne and therefore different to use......not difficult, just different!! It will however, show your sloppiness, and will not perform perfectly if you decide not to follow the directions. There are many aircraft that have been flying for years with it on, and are having absolutely NO problems. As with anything, bad rumors travel fastest and loudest, and gain "story" everytime they're told!

Ceconite is a dope based system. Plain and simple. The videos posted above should be more than enough to convince anyone that it's not what they want to wrap themselves or their friends and loved ones in! Like I said before, I've lost a good friend in an airplane crash, not due to the injuries sustained in the crash, but due to the fire that ensued. Think about that for a while......

There are other systems out there. Superflite, is probably the next most popular. It's a solvent based system and uses a polyurethane topcoat. The topcoat looks great but is known to crack in a few years. I'm watching the Oratex system with interest. I've been through the FAA approval process for a fabric system myself, and know they've got many hurdles to clear. I think it will have it's place in the industry, and am going to give it a try to see how I like it very soon.

John

[skip]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

I am getting feedback about the Stewarts system becoming splotchy when it gets wet and looking like crap after a few rain storms....that is why I am recommending the Stitts. Tim

Tim, Maybe you have old news. Early Stewart's top coat was rumored to have problems, but we have several planes here that are now done with Stewarts. Some are parked outside at 7200 MSL. I did my wings a couple of years ago with it. I think that the problems that I have tracked down are ALL due to folks who have done Ceconite or Stitts who try to use those same techniques with Stewarts. Stewarts is similar but with differences. My experience is that when one follows the Stewart Systems instructions then the system works really well. No splotchys, No blisters, rain just runs off...

I would use it again as my first choice.

For what its worth.

[Tom G]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

John thanks for the explanation. I see now that Ceconite was great but has been surpassed. poly fiber or stewarts seems to make the most sense. I want to thank all of you for educating me on this topic. I've got to contact more shops and have some discussions. If anyone knows of anyone who does this work, maybe an individual that does one airplane at a time and might take longer to get to work on it and longer for the project i have no problem with that. If i have to bring it to another state so be it. Thanks!

[astjp2]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

Well the overhaul shops in Alaska were getting 20-30K for a cub recover and they do 20 per year, so that is what I have as a comparable..Tim

[PA1195]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

Tim's estimate of cost of recovering is reality in Alaska...at $100/hr plus parts. Obviously that entails some repairs and corrosion correction. STC's and mods extra.

What that means is that it more cost effective to buy it done than build it. Most pilots would rather fly than fix, especially if time and owner age are a consideration.

I have experience in these matters and would never rebuild/restore an aircraft unless I had another to fly.

Edit: Another consideration is post-restoration value...a desirable PA-18 or similar will be worth far more than some others when completed, yet the cost and time to recover can be similar. That often precludes paying others versus doing it yourself. The added value of the upgrade work to the basic aircraft needs to be weighed against any eventual selling price.

Gary

[skip]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

As per costs: about 6 years ago we had major hail that wiped out a Tri-Pacer, A Citabrea, and my Taylorcraft. The insurance estimate for a recover fo the Taylorcraft was $23K and the insurance wanted to total it. We settled for what they could afford and I did the recover. Sweat Equity. As I am retired, I figure that I made out on the deal...

[taylorcraftbc65]

Re: I'm having it painted....need opinions on cost

I am getting feedback about the Stewarts system becoming splotchy when it gets wet and looking like crap after a few rain storms....that is why I am recommending the Stitts. Tim

I bought my 1940 BC-65 in 2003, after it had been completely rebuilt in 2000, and covered in the Blue River system. It had been hangered constantly from the day it was covered, to the day that I bought it, and every day from then until now. The finish is 16 years old, and has small cracks all over it. My wife's Cessna 140 has a Stits recover that is 10 years OLDER, and it has NEVER been hangered, and the Stits system looks FINE. I'm going to recover my plane this Summer, and I am going to go with what I have experience using since the late seventies, which is the Old School Stits.