has everyone on here checked to see of they have the required equipment?

[astjp2]

Well is a gas quantity indicator in the tcds or in the regs?

[3Dreaming]

Well is a gas quantity indicator in the tcds or in the regs?

Yes, 91.205, (b), (9). In fact 91.205 covers all of the minimum required equipment. 91.513 does require a hand held fire extinguisher, but that is for large and turbine powered multi engine airplanes.

[astjp2]

And car 4?

[PA1195]

We need an initial copy of TCDS A-696, A-699, and A-700. If the original TCDS allowed exceptions to CAR Part 4 (May 1938) 04.510 required equipment as part of certification it would inform. Should I also assume with each subsequent Revision the equipment list requirements can be modified by the then current TCDS holder and so can the requirements issued previously? Like fire extinguisher and first aid kit no longer required?

Gary

[astjp2]

I still have not seen any evidence for any exceptions to an FAR, or in this case a CAR. If the regs require it, it may not be listed in the tcds which I noted above.

[astjp2]

Oh, the 91.205 is a pilot requirement, for current part 23 airplanes:FAR 23.1337(b)(1) stated that each fuel quantity indicator must be calibrated to read ‘zero’ during level flight when the quantity of fuel remaining in the tank is equal to the unusable fuel supply. In other words, fuel gauges should be calibrated in terms of remaining usable fuel. But zero usable fuel isn’t the only time they’re required to be accurate. This immediately followed FAR 23.1337(b), which stated that there must be a means to indicate to the flightcrew members the quantity of usable fuel in each tank during flight. An indicator that’s only accurate when the tanks are empty doesn’t satisfy that requirement. In 2017, FAR 23 was rewritten, eliminating that wording. The new FAR 23.2430 says that fuel systems must provide the flightcrew with a means to determine the total usable fuel available.

[astjp2]

Yes, 91.205, (b), (9). In fact 91.205 covers all of the minimum required equipment. 91.513 does require a hand held fire extinguisher, but that is for large and turbine powered multi engine airplanes.

Still a pilot requirement, here is the part 23 requirement: Sec. 23.851 — Fire extinguishers.

(a) There must be at least one hand fire extinguisher for use in the pilot compartment that is located within easy access of the pilot while seated.

[Ragwing nut]

Oh, the 91.205 is a pilot requirement, for current part 23 airplanes:FAR 23.1337(b)(1) stated that each fuel quantity indicator must be calibrated to read ‘zero’ during level flight when the quantity of fuel remaining in the tank is equal to the unusable fuel supply. In other words, fuel gauges should be calibrated in terms of remaining usable fuel. But zero usable fuel isn’t the only time they’re required to be accurate. This immediately followed FAR 23.1337(b), which stated that there must be a means to indicate to the flightcrew members the quantity of usable fuel in each tank during flight. An indicator that’s only accurate when the tanks are empty doesn’t satisfy that requirement. In 2017, FAR 23 was rewritten, eliminating that wording. The new FAR 23.2430 says that fuel systems must provide the flightcrew with a means to determine the total usable fuel available.

well thats a problem, since the fuel gauge in the tcraft is set to quit bobbing at 3 gallons. Technically you can find a violation with every single aircraft flying. How far down this rabbit hole do we want to go? 9 out of 10 times I find missing compass cards, let alone a logged compass swing. Weight and balance has had 15 negligible changes from 337's, and on and on.

[3Dreaming]

well thats a problem, since the fuel gauge in the tcraft is set to quit bobbing at 3 gallons. Technically you can find a violation with every single aircraft flying. How far down this rabbit hole do we want to go? 9 out of 10 times I find missing compass cards, let alone a logged compass swing. Weight and balance has had 15 negligible changes from 337's, and on and on.

Well that's another thing. Is a compass card required?

[Guest]

We need an initial copy of TCDS A-696, A-699, and A-700. If the original TCDS allowed exceptions to CAR Part 4 (May 1938) 04.510 required equipment as part of certification it would inform. Should I also assume with each subsequent Revision the equipment list requirements can be modified by the then current TCDS holder and so can the requirements issued previously? Like fire extinguisher and first aid kit no longer required?

Gary

Gary,

Initially (back in the pre-FAA adays) we did not have TCDS but rather had aircraft specifications.

I can't recall if they were exactly the same as TCDS but I think not.

My point is that you may not find it there.

Dave

[PA1195]

Thanks Dave and all. I carry a small Halon extinguisher in the cockpit and a first aid kit in my survival-camping gear. I hope I never need them but they're there if I do.

[Mark Bowden]

Just because a new cert revision or a new Part 23 is issued, it doesn't apply to prior TC'd aircraft, i.e. we don't have to upgrade to the fuel system indication in the "new" part 23. The answer we seek likely depends on to what amendment they sought TC under and what that revision contained. They could have applied for example for the BC12-D to be certified to a prior revision because "we are only changing this" or "same as except for....".

For example if TC was granted on early Tcrafts under CAR3 and then just the "same as except" stuff, i.e. 65 hp motor is under CAR 4. Those subtleties are probably the only way to get the answer and are likely lost to time. Its a game still played today, always try to do the program to the old version as new requirements are more effort/$$$. I suggest this because I don't see fire extinguishers in hardly any of our vintage aircraft. The question is, where are all the old fire extinguishers, if every one left the factory with one because it is required wouldn't there be significant evidence of this? Just a thought.

I know a couple guys at the small airplane directorate here in KC, if we really wanted I could ask a hypothetical question.

[PA1195]

I'm back. Mark, how about asking which applies when the airworthiness is confirmed by inspection...the general CAR under which the Taylorcraft was originally certified (listed on the TCDS), or the current FAA listed Revision of the TCDS? Might answer many questions especially when it comes to subsequent alterations and tests of compliance with applicable certification.

Gary

Edit: Where this all comes into play is when alterations are done. What basis is used for compliance? The CAR, TCDS, or the FAA's interpretation?

[3Dreaming]

Still a pilot requirement, here is the part 23 requirement: Sec. 23.851 — Fire extinguishers.

(a) There must be at least one hand fire extinguisher for use in the pilot compartment that is located within easy access of the pilot while seated.

23.851 doesn't appear to be current.

[astjp2]

23.851 doesn't appear to be current.

Sorry, updated a few years ago, 23.2325f1 same wording