I need an ELT

[N96337]

Re: I need an ELT

I'm with Tim....I know a few that have been found thanks to the ELT. PLB's are great, and I'm sure there's newer and better stuff every day...but don't knock the tried and true stuff.
I've got an old one you can borrow or even have Rob, if you want it....it'll need a battery but I think it'd get you legal.
John

[PA1195]

Re: I need an ELT

For new ELT installations see COSPAS/SARSAT, TSO C-126b, and FAR 91.207

COSPAS/SARSAT: http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/cospas_sarsat.html
TSO C-126b: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...e?OpenFrameset
FAR 91.207: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...0!OpenDocument

Gary

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: I need an ELT

Understand I am NOT saying to ignore the regulations. Get LEGAL first, but if you want to be found, get something more that actually tells folks where you are (or were just before the ELT stopped working).
My solution is the lowest cost system that meets the regs, but ADD ON a Spot so my wife can track where I am and I have a reasonable chance of being found. The 121.5 systems are so bad that when one goes off in a home or hangar the trackers can't even find the house or hangar (has happened here several times when one went off on the ground). They had to go door to door to find one in a neighborhood and open a BUNCH of hangars to find another. The GPS personal locators can tell which tree you are leaning against in the woods. With time they get a more accurate location. They loose accuracy if you are moving and are less accurate the faster you go. Of course if you are making 3mph walking you will hear the folks looking for you, if unconscious they will find you. Probability of rescue is MUCH better with the Spot.

Hank

[3Dreaming]

Re: I need an ELT

For new ELT installations see COSPAS/SARSAT, TSO C-126b, and FAR 91.207

COSPAS/SARSAT: http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/cospas_sarsat.html
TSO C-126b: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...e?OpenFrameset
FAR 91.207: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...0!OpenDocument

Gary

I believe 91.207 is the only legal requirement. It says you cannot make a new installation with a TSO C91 ELT. The next generation after that was TSO C91a. They had the in panel control for the ELT. The reason I ask if there had been a ELT installed before is that you could reinstall the same type ELT without any further paperwork, and it would not have to meet the newer TSO's. For example I am not sure the EBC ELT that Tim offered could be installed, unless it had a EBC previously installed.

[Mark Bowden]

Re: I need an ELT

There may be legal coverage for you in this instance and the IA's here may be of more help than me on this interpretation. I'm with Hank on always being legal and if you want to sell her soon, put a used 121.5 box in. (As noted above if logs show she had one before.)

The regs sometimes have a way for you to get it fixed and not be grounded. The reg allows operation while replacement is in progress.

Look at Para (f)(10). Sec. 91.207. You are in a situation where it was discovered that "persons unknown", prior ownership, removed the ELT. Therefore you are in a phase where an allowed replacement is in process and you have 90 days to get it done. If placarded and noted in the logs as to date of removal Paragraph (a) does not apply. The date of removal is unknown so a possible proper log entry could likely be date of discovery of removal, reasons unknown, prior make/model/SN unknown, by persons unknown. 90 day replacement allowance starts on that day, today.

You might be able to find a used one at Oshkosh.

[3Dreaming]

Re: I need an ELT

There may be legal coverage for you in this instance and the IA's here may be of more help than me on this interpretation. I'm with Hank on always being legal and if you want to sell her soon, put a used 121.5 box in. (As noted above if logs show she had one before.)

Unless the ELT meets TSO C91a or later, the installation of a used ELT would have to be of the same make and model that was previously installed.

As a IA I think signing off that the ELT was removed for maintenance would be an overreach of the intent of the regulation.

[Mark Bowden]

Re: I need an ELT

I agree that stretching things is not good practice.

I suggest it for consideration/discussion that may be ok because in many cases for repairs, allowance is given to get to a place to make the repair from where you are currently located via ferry permit or allowance. A one time trip, that's it. That is given in paragraph (e), even allowing for getting a "new to you" aircraft to a place to install an ELT.

However, in this case the surprising thing is that, in addition, normal operation allowance is permitted for 90 days for just about any reason, "inspection, repair, modification, or replacement". This is amazing regulatory latitude and with 8 other operational exceptions in addition to these four. Including unlimited training operations within 50 miles of start point!

Can it not be a simple entry as required by the regulation. It is missing, other than theft, the permitted removal reasons cover all other possibilities. Since there is no apparent log documented removal date, the only honest answer is either "unknown" or the date of inspection discovery is it not?

My question is what else would you enter in the log? If stolen, then it would seem you would be permitted the Para (e) trip, but how do you know if that was the reason to keep the entries honest? If you don't know, then it would seem you are left with "unknown or replacement" for a reason, wouldn't you be permitted 90 days to rectify the situation? Even if it was stolen now you have to replace it as the reason. Again seemingly back to 90 days.

Is the other case if there is no documentation that it was ever installed in the logs or the logs are missing you get a one time trip? But as Rob said how did it pass annual without it? If it did pass then aren't you again back to a replacement situation and 90 days to fix?

[Garry Crookham]

Re: I need an ELT

An ELT is an operational requirement (FAR 91.207) not an airworthiness requirement. As such, if there is no ELT installed in an aircraft it can still pass an annual inspection. I've been an IA for quite a few years, performed a lot of annuals, and dealt with a couple of airplanes with no ELT's installed. I always inform the owner to review FAR 91.207 before placing the aircraft in service and follow it up with a registered letter to the owner via U.S. Mail.

As far as operating an aircraft with the ELT removed for maintenance here is what FAR 91.207 says:

(10) An aircraft during any period for which the transmitter has been temporarily removed for inspection, repair, modification, or replacement, subject to the following:

(i) No person may operate the aircraft unless the aircraft records contain an entry which includes the date of initial removal, the make, model, serial number, and reason for removing the transmitter, and a placard located in view of the pilot to show “ELT not installed.”

(ii) No person may operate the aircraft more than 90 days after the ELT is initially removed from the aircraft;

As it says the make, model and serial number of the removed ELT must be entered in the maintenance records.

[mikerice]

Re: I need an ELT

+1 on the above answer.

Rob,
You should pull the FAA CD on your Taylorcraft. I think you can still do this at the FAA "booth" at Oshkosh, and they might be able to print the CD right there. It is $5, A BARGAIN!

The airworthiness records include all FAA Forms 337 submitted for your aircraft, and the ELT install is often in those back records. It will include the ELT manufacturer and model. Pick up a used one at the Oshkosh swap meet, put a fresh battery in the ELT and re-install in your aircraft. In the mean time the plane is flyable with a logbook entry as described by Gary.

The PLBs are better at getting you found, but the ELT is part of the paperwork that enables your Taylorcraft to leave the ground...

[PA1195]

Re: I need an ELT

I'm told that any FSDO employee has access to current aircraft data on file with the FAA. Just ask.

Gary

[Robert Lees]

Re: I need an ELT

I already have the FAA CD at home...but I landed in Chicago three hours ago!
Rob

[Robert Lees]

Re: I need an ELT

I already have the FAA CD at home...but I landed in Chicago three hours ago!
Rob

[M Towsley]

Re: I need an ELT

Welcome to Illinois, please don't drink the water in Chicago. In fact, flee as soon as possible! Glad you made it safely.

[astjp2]

Re: I need an ELT

Panel mount only required if you physically cannot reach the ELT from the pilots seat, that is what I remember, mine had the EBC 102 previously so I am ok..

I believe 91.207 is the only legal requirement. It says you cannot make a new installation with a TSO C91 ELT. The next generation after that was TSO C91a. They had the in panel control for the ELT. The reason I ask if there had been a ELT installed before is that you could reinstall the same type ELT without any further paperwork, and it would not have to meet the newer TSO's. For example I am not sure the EBC ELT that Tim offered could be installed, unless it had a EBC previously installed.

[Robert Lees]

Re: I need an ELT

I ended up buying an Artex 345 ELT. 406 and all the modern stuff. https://www.acrartex.com/products/ca....j8A5yZLO.dpbs

I was very wary of buying something used or second-hand or 121.5-only, simply on the basis that it costs me a small fortune to travel to the USA for each flight, and hopefully it will ad to the value of the aircraft.

I am awaiting it's delivery to the mechanic to install, and for the IA to sign it off.

Let's hope I can get aeroplane airworthy now.

Rob