Seats

[mike bc12d]

I have a question about if i place Cessana 150 seats in the tcraft without doing any paper work is it legal. I took the original cushions out and i have a wedge shape piece of foam in the sling so that it is level with the front support tube so the 150 seats just sit in place without being attached in, just the seatbelts hold them in place. They are very comfortable and plenty of room. Any thoughts on this.
Mike Wolter

[Mark Julicher]

Re: Seats

Mike,
That is rather clever I think.
Since the original equipment was foam cushions and you merely have foam cushions, you might make the case that it is a minor alteration.
But.
Since the C-150 seats have metal parts and are not just foam cushions, you could make the case that they are not legal.
But,
Since these are just comfortable cushions and not fastened to the airframe they are merely booster cushions and perfectly legal.
But,
Since they add a certain amount of weight are they covered in the Wt & Bal?

This debate could go on and on and it probably will

You might circumvent the issue by getting an upholstery shop to make a seat cushion using the C-150 seats as a pattern.

[N96337]

Re: Seats

I think it's Dick Smith that has the fiberglas seats in his....
John

[PA1195]

Re: Seats

Cessna's FAA approved parts treated as temporary cargo or baggage...not permanently installed. R&R between flights as required for number of souls on board. Include in W&B calculations but don't add to the aircraft's equipment list.

Gary

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Seats

I like Gary's logic, but remember, it is your IA or A&P who will have the most to say about it.

Hank

[PA1195]

Re: Seats

I've wondered in the past what constitutes an airworthy seat assembly, and who (besides the user) regulates temporary cushions placed upon an airworthy OEM base to afford a better fit for the plane's occupants? Surely baggage or cargo may include such cushions for later use after landing in camp or on portable chairs that are themselves potentially flammable? Their carriage isn't outlawed in Part 91 non-commercial or transport ops as far as I'm aware.

I'm not trying to evade the OP's question, but rather am questioning why ask it to begin with, providing like Hank properly suggests, whoever does the maintenance isn't confronted with an airworthiness concern at inspection time. In other words ask first and leave them in if it's ok, if not, remove and reinstall them as required. I doubt most maintenance personnel directly know the answer.

Would a ramp check include a conformity inspection of the portable seat cushions for non-Part 23 or 135 aircraft. I doubt it would but may be wrong.

Gary

[mike bc12d]

Re: Seats

I agree with the logic to just use and enjoy, I will probable get them recovered at some time. Thanks guy's.
Mike

[astjp2]

Re: Seats

Seats are structural, any mods most likely is a major. Tim

[Scott]

Re: Seats

The seats, particularly the cushions are not structural at all. The structure, in the case of the Tcraft is the seat spider, forward lath and baggage compartment/seatback cross-tube. The certification would have been all about the restraint system and nothing to do with the seat sling or cushions. You could be sitting on a milk crate as long as your using the unmodified OEM seat belts. There is a very big difference between aircraft seats that incorporate seat belt attach points and those that don't (ie seat belts attach directly to aircraft structure)

If there is a negligible difference in weight between the C150 cushions/upolstery and the Tcraft cushions upholstery, and no changes have been made to the restraint system, I think it's safe to say this is a minor modification.

[astjp2]

Re: Seats

http://www.taylorcraft.org/docs/aluminum%20seat2.pdf

http://www.taylorcraft.org/docs/seat%20belt%20mod2.pdf

http://www.taylorcraft.org/docs/seat%20tube%20mod%202.pdf

Seat cushions probably not, except for the impact testing due in the event of a crash....too soft or hard can cause injury......the covers not so much either...except for the material must meet spec. I get what you are saying but it all comes down to can someone get violated for it? In this instance, most likely not, one approved part for another. Just something to think about. Tim

[PA1195]

Re: Seats

http://www.taylorcraft.org/docs/aluminum%20seat2.pdf

http://www.taylorcraft.org/docs/seat%20belt%20mod2.pdf

http://www.taylorcraft.org/docs/seat%20tube%20mod%202.pdf

Seat cushions probably not, except for the impact testing due in the event of a crash....too soft or hard can cause injury......the covers not so much either...except for the material must meet spec. I get what you are saying but it all comes down to can someone get violated for it? In this instance, most likely not, one approved part for another. Just something to think about. Tim

I have your mods. But how about running the floating seat cushions by your PMI or similar? Then we'll get some reality besides opinion?

Nobody did impact testing of seats and occupants under CAR 3, 4, or 4A as far as I can determine (might be wrong however).

EDIT: I have seen pictures of seats loaded with fixed weights in other planes probably to test their strength. Taylorcraft may have done same so my conjecture could be all wrong.

And the spec or covering from 1941??? Who in reality has a repaired 1941 seat cushion, or better yet the original two cushions per P/N separate from the sling and tube-wire-wood structure?

EDIT: I wonder if the F19 and later models' seat and cushion was the same as earlier designs? If so then maybe there's hope for comparisons to added cushions as in this thread.

Maybe Airtex could offer a substantiation for their sling and cushions?

Not an argument but just looking for an answer and not an opinion. The latter of which is all I can offer as I doubt there's an issue here affecting airworthiness or safe operation.

Gary

[3Dreaming]

Re: Seats

I really doubt anyone is using an original seat cushion anyway, because they simple would not have lasted this long. The pre war airplanes were stuffed with some kind of natural fiber. I have heard that it was ginned swamp moss.

[astjp2]

Re: Seats

first off, my PMI changes with the direction of the wind, just when I get one broke in, I get a new one. I don't even bother asking anymore, I just look in the regs myself......I know pilot in FAI who went to the FAA complaining about his mechanic because the mechanic did not do was asked or required on a repair/annual, the FAA went out and inspected his airplane, said that the pilot was in non-compliance and tried to write him a violation over a paperwork problem...but the FAA is here to help you.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Seats

I was told the older planes seats were stuffed with horse hair (not sure if it was true) and I did find out that the pre-war planes fabric was Mohair and "Leatherette" unless you would spring for real leather. A nice thing when I did my seats I was talking to the engineers at the Small Aircraft Certification Directorate in Kansas City and they said the fire rules before WW-II were different (and much simpler) and you were supposed to comply with THOSE, not the current ones. Leather is also EXEMPT from the fire rules, which surprised me, even on more modern planes! I couldn't find any horse hair for mine and used fire resistant foam. No one has ever batted an eye at it.

Hank

[PA1195]

Re: Seats

first off, my PMI changes with the direction of the wind, just when I get one broke in, I get a new one. I don't even bother asking anymore, I just look in the regs myself......I know pilot in FAI who went to the FAA complaining about his mechanic because the mechanic did not do was asked or required on a repair/annual, the FAA went out and inspected his airplane, said that the pilot was in non-compliance and tried to write him a violation over a paperwork problem...but the FAA is here to help you.

Thanks for being here Tim with the education and experience and offering your insight. I believe your plight with PMI's as I've heard it before. When my last plane (a PA-11) was rebuilt a FAA crew of 2-3 came by every month to survey the project. We all got along and learned back and forth. In the end I requested a Conformity Inspection and had a new Airworthiness Certificate issued to end the examination and start a new chapter.

I was indirectly involved in an action similar to what you describe...a complaint was filed by an owner against a mechanic that had maintained both our planes or engines. My records were examined and found to be in compliance. The other action I don't know what resulted and lost track.

I try to keep everything up to date and do whatever my I/A recommends to protect both of us. But sometimes questions like this seat cushion thread come up and getting an answer becomes difficult as is the case with maintaining airworthiness in old aircraft.

Gary