Rear window frames

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Rear window frames

I need to get them from the file (file sounds like pile which is what all my drawings are in on the guest bed) and take them down to the engineering copy center to make a copy. I have two types of wood frame drawings. One is the factory type that are made from thin strips wrapped around a form you cut from MDF. I made a set for my 41 but built them up like the tail surfaces on the old Guillows rubber models. It makes the wood wider so the screws have more "meat" to go in. Since I was making the wood wider I could use lower strength Poplar wood instead of spruce strips and still be much stronger for a gain of less than a pound of weight. I have both drawings and can send them for the cost of copies and postage, usually less than $10 each.
Send me your address at hjarrett2 at cox dot net and I will pull them out and copy the ones you want.
Hank

[EricAos]

Re: Rear window frames

Hank, I take all my plans to the local arcitectural drafting supply, and have them scan them as high resolution PDF's. Makes it easier for me to store / organize them, and I can print them all out as 8-1/2 x 11 for a handy reference, or plot them full size to build from.

Another tip for those of us who are frugel. A & B size can be scanned on just about any copier, like at Kinkos. Larger sizes can be scaned as 2 or 4 pieces, and 'stitched' back together with free software from Microsoft. (Google Microsoft ICE)

[woodmw]

Re: Rear window frames

About a year ago, Dick Smith posted a link to a photo record of a Tcraft rebuild project that ended up being a Lindy winner in 2011. Beautiful airplane. This is a link to the D-window in the plane. https://picasaweb.google.com/ryanajo...05215450833618

Since they are wood and smaller than Robert posted earlier, are they more like the pre-war frames? Similar to those you made for the '41, Hank? How about pre-war frames in post-war plane? Big hassle getting them legal?

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Rear window frames

The "D" window in the Lindy winner actually isn't a pre or post-war window. It is very similar to the one I made for my 41 with the wider wood to allow easier attachment of the metal covers that hold the Plexi. The "shape" of the window opening is like a slightly smaller post-war metal frame or a pre-war with the top and bottom sides slightly straightened. The original pre-war frames were bent from thin strips of green wood around a form. Since finding green Spruce is kind of hard I redid the design to use thin strips laminated around the form (if the wood isn't green enough it just splits and breaks, thin strips will bend around the form). When Taylor didn't have green wood he evidently did the same since I have seen some pre-war frames with the lamination layers visible.
As for adding the windows to the airframe, I doubt anyone who isn't a member here would even know if they were supposed to be there. From a purely "LEGAL" point of view I guess you should get a log entry if you change from what the plane was built with, but it is secondary structure and not a safety issue. I guess if it was mine I would just put in the type I wanted and call it an interior upholstery change. ;-)

I don't know what year the Lindy winner is but if it is one from close to the war I AM worried about the missing tubes and the tabs that have been added! The tube that runs from the door latch area up to the rear spar at the longeron is a piece of PRIMARY STRUCTURE! That is the tube you usually see running through the front part of the "D" window. It is GONE on that plane! That tube provides a lot of cabin stiffness in a crash and like the PITA tube that cuts across the back of the door opening SHOULD NOT BE REMOVED! I just hope the plane is one of the Ferris planes or later that had a different load path design (I know very little about the late model Taylorcrafts). If it IS one of Dorthy's planes it would have had the huge rectangular windows, not the "D" windows, but again, other than us, who would ever notice?

Hank

[3Dreaming]

Re: Rear window frames

I didn't see any missing tubes. I looked at all the pictures and the tubes are all there. They are using post war doors, and they extend back to the tube you say is missing, so you don't see it in the "D" window.

[woodmw]

Re: Rear window frames

The plane is a '46, N44085. If you zoom in on the picture and look at the right side window, you can see the inner frame sits inside the fuselage tubes. The frames are made in two pieces, the outside part extending down and forward to cover the tubes. An earlier picture, #47, shows the frames being glued together. With an attachment solution that didn't require welding like the shown tabs, looks to me like these could be put in a plane already covered. Any thoughts? Could one use Adel clamps (or non-cushioned) around the tubes?

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Rear window frames

I put my wood frame in with the covering in place from the inside. It took some fiddling and trimming of the wood to fit around the tubes, but it worked well. I started looking at the other pictures and saw the N number on the fuselage, but it is NOT the same configuration as my 41 or my 45. My 45 is NC-43196 and is different in MANY way from that one. I know my fuselage SN is original so I wonder if 44085 got a new fuselage frame at some time. I need to pull up my 45 pictures and look at the differences.
Bottom line for those who want to put the "D" window frames in, you can and it isn't that hard, but it is a LOT easier with the frame uncovered!
Hank

NOT being critical of 44085! That is ONE BEAUTIFUL restoration. Just looking at the differences in how he did things.

[woodmw]

Re: Rear window frames



I made a typo.......N44085 is my plane. I wish it was even close to this aircraft. The restored plane is N44034. I guess habit took over when I started typing the "N".

I have spent hours looking at these photos. And those in the other albums. At first, I spent the time looking at the subject, i.e., plane/parts. Then I looked at the backgrounds. The tools and equipment; pictures, posters, signs; PA11 & Pitts. A work chair made from a metal tractor seat. These guys are my heros!

The Tcraft is not the only Oshkosh winner. The Vagabond was Reserve Grand Champion Classic in 2009!

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Rear window frames

44034 is even closer to 43196. I still wonder if that is the original fuselage from early 46. There are just too many small differences and I have to wonder if it isn't a much later replacement fuselage. There is NOTHING wrong with replacing a damaged fuselage, it just makes photo-aero-archeology more difficult.

Second topic, I am still in awe of the quality of his work, but I doubt the items in the background influenced how well it came out as much as they represent his quality of workmanship on everything he touches. Those are the kinds of pictures we need more of posted here!

Hank

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Rear window frames

I am pretty certain one of the wood "D" window print patterns is one of my originals I sent him to copy years ago. The ones in the lindy pic are no where close to original. AND on the topic of this thread I have a pair of the metal window frames in the first post that are NOS.

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Rear window frames

44034 is even closer to 43196. I still wonder if that is the original fuselage from early 46. There are just too many small differences and I have to wonder if it isn't a much later replacement fuselage. There is NOTHING wrong with replacing a damaged fuselage, it just makes photo-aero-archeology more difficult.

Second topic, I am still in awe of the quality of his work, but I doubt the items in the background influenced how well it came out as much as they represent his quality of workmanship on everything he touches. Those are the kinds of pictures we need more of posted here!

Hank

The fuse is a hodge podge of stuff with a lot of libertys taken. has prewar wing root close out support tubes. late metal door frames and late metal stringers, incorrect d window. very nice work, but nothing worth posting if your wanting accuracy.

[bladd]

Re: Rear window frames

I'm going to jump in here and ask a dumb question. Why do some Taylorcraft have rear windows and some don't? There are a number of BC12d's around here and I can't think of any that have the rear windows even the Deluxe that I know of. Were they a special order item in 1946? Were they only available on the prewar models? I think the aircraft looks better with the rear windows and I can imagine that the rear windows could provide a bit of a safety advantage. Thanks, Bob

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Rear window frames

I think (dangerous I know) they were originally used on the Deluxe models. The were a nice addition and provided a little bit of additional visibility to the rear on the other side of the plane. My opinion, they look good.

What I think happened is a lot of people added them when they recovered because it was easy and most people liked them. There are a few Deluxe's out there without them and I think they were probably left off, especially the pre-war wood ones when the wood frames rotted out.

Bottom line, they were available on some planes and are on the equipment list. If you like them and want them there is no reason you shouldn't put them in.

Hank

[Ryan]

Re: Rear window frames

Hank you are correct. There is a missing vertical tube that ends at the baggage attachments. You can see it heading straight down in our rear windows. I also believe you are correct In that this tube was removed during the ferris era and maybe even late '46 or 47 and model 19 production. Stringer pattern on that fuselage defiantly matches a later model. Early bc12ds had two long stringers like the per wars. Gorgeous tcraft and restoration by the way!!!