Pre/Post War Wings

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

If you have a copy of that letter in hand and your IA agrees the only reason I think you should use the stick ribs is if you are a stickler for originality. Save the stick ribs for the (slightly more than) half crazy among us who want them. As far as utility and strength are copncerned, the stamped ribs are FAR superior.
Hank

[astjp2]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

There is a letter posted in the tech ref. section that says the post war ribs are interchangeable with the pre war ones. Tim

[3Dreaming]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

Before a lot of peoples heads explode, Mike is right about wing applications. The first stamped rib wings were made in 1945 and you aren't "supposed" to put them on a pre-war without paperwork. That said, there are a LOT of pre-war planes with stamped ribs and a few post war planes with stick ribs out there. They aren't legal without the proper paper, but where will you find an A&P/IA who knows the difference? Your plane isn't going to fall out of the sky because you have stamped ribs on a pre-war plane, but you SHOULD quietly get the paperwork put together to make it legal.

I don't have the drawing to look it up, but I would think that the 15 rib wing with stamped ribs is approved for the previous model airplanes. The drawing would show what model it is approved for. If you ordered a wing from taylorcraft in 1946 for a prewar airplane I doubt that they had a special stash of truss ribs to build one up.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

The truth belongs to all. Only a lie is owned.
Hank

[Robert Lees]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

To the FAA it doesn't matter if it works or if it is safe, it matters if they have approved it. ...

That is a great quote ...do you mind if I steal it (no names, no pack drill)?

Rob

[wmfife]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

Quantity vs quality. In the case of ribs, increasing either produced the desired result.

Taylorcraft, Inc. learned how to stamp parts like ribs out of sheet stock when they made bomber components under contract during the war years. (Peek)

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

To the FAA it doesn't matter if it works or if it is safe, it matters if they have approved it. I think when Taylorcraft went to the 15 rib stamped wing they were thinking way ahead to the four place planes they wanted to do in the future with the fiber glass fuselage shell. The stamped ribs are plenty strong enough for actual loads, it is the spars, struts and attach design that would limit load capacity.

None of that matters if an IA who knows what he is looking at sees the wrong configuration. All he is allowed to care about is if it is LEGAL, not if it will work. Lots of good IAs and A&Ps out there, but if they let something go that they KNOW is not in configuration control, even if they know it is safe, they are risking their ticket. It isn't fair for us to put something in front of them that we KNOW is not the right configuration and take advantage of their ignorance of the way it should be. We NEED these guys! A lot of A&Ps and IAs won't even LOOK at a tube and rag plane any more, and the FAA would just like for them to go away. We need for the A&Ps and IAs to trust us as much as we trust them.

Hank

15 rib wings were part of the gross weight increase from 11xx to 1200 on deluxe and postwar models. When the gross weight went up again on f19 the spar gussets and strut attach brackets got reinforced. On the original f21, the spar height was increased from 5.875 to 6.0 inches.

[wmfife]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

Well said, Hank. Yes we owe it to ourselves to keep these guys in the loop and use no tricks. Reform through the system is the only way to go in aviation. On that note:

Reliability-Based Maintenance is coming. I was on an EAA webinar just this week that explained it all. Airlines and the military have been using it since the '60's and '70's saving gobs of $$ while multiplying safety but GA alone is still stuck in the 1950's where maintenance is concerned.

Our IA's and A&P's are all still trained in the old school, where preventive maintenance is based on calendar inspections, logged time and TBO, neither of which consider actual component statistics or consequence of failure. In fact many types of routine but highly invasive maintenance procedures actually increase rather than reduce risk and there is a thing called Infant Mortality, as when a newly overhauled engine is equally if not more likely to fail than a high-time one. Run to Failure is now being implemented where nonessential or noncritical components such as redundant radios or even magnetos are involved, especially in cases (mags being the example cited) where inspection would reveal no indication of imminent failure.

Wing ribs would probably fall under the RTF directive, but as always the bean-counters and pencil-pushers will make life difficult for us all if we let them. Still there are gov't employees that actually are honest and want to work with us to get past these technical snafus where we find them. You just have to be careful, use common sense and stay diplomatic. Illegitimi no Carborundum. As always it still applies especially here. Change is slow. But it comes to those who don't give up and stay in the fight.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

To the FAA it doesn't matter if it works or if it is safe, it matters if they have approved it. I think when Taylorcraft went to the 15 rib stamped wing they were thinking way ahead to the four place planes they wanted to do in the future with the fiber glass fuselage shell. The stamped ribs are plenty strong enough for actual loads, it is the spars, struts and attach design that would limit load capacity.

None of that matters if an IA who knows what he is looking at sees the wrong configuration. All he is allowed to care about is if it is LEGAL, not if it will work. Lots of good IAs and A&Ps out there, but if they let something go that they KNOW is not in configuration control, even if they know it is safe, they are risking their ticket. It isn't fair for us to put something in front of them that we KNOW is not the right configuration and take advantage of their ignorance of the way it should be. We NEED these guys! A lot of A&Ps and IAs won't even LOOK at a tube and rag plane any more, and the FAA would just like for them to go away. We need for the A&Ps and IAs to trust us as much as we trust them.

Hank

[cvavon]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

Ok as far as the paper work i don't know but i would use the 13 rib wing on any taylorcraft the 180 hp carbon cub ex uses a 13 rib wing as is a stock wing on a 150 hp supper cub also it's t channel like pre war also 22 gl tanks in the wing so why did taylor add ribs? piper stayed with taylors old design and it worked until today 66 carbon cubs sold last year not counting kits and other companies oh and i think there 1700 lb gross wt that can go to 2000 lbs

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

Before a lot of peoples heads explode, Mike is right about wing applications. The first stamped rib wings were made in 1945 and you aren't "supposed" to put them on a pre-war without paperwork. That said, there are a LOT of pre-war planes with stamped ribs and a few post war planes with stick ribs out there. They aren't legal without the proper paper, but where will you find an A&P/IA who knows the difference? Your plane isn't going to fall out of the sky because you have stamped ribs on a pre-war plane, but you SHOULD quietly get the paperwork put together to make it legal.

If you have stick ribs on a 1,200# or more GW plane you probably have a problem. If I was doing the analysis I doubt I would allow a 13 rib old type wing to fly on a post war plane, at least not without a full analysis, and I am guessing it wouldn't have the safety margins for 1,200# GW.

Hank

I remember at least one BC-12 I saw with WOOD RIBS! It isn't that they aren't strong enough, they just may not be legal if they are found on a certified plane. I think the wood rib wings were built for an aerobatic plane and it was probably in the Experimental category. If the owner wants to talk about it (he is in the Tribe) I will let him tell us what he had to do to make the wings legal. Those are some STRONG wings.

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

you did not mention what year project you were trying to install them on. If it is a postwar you can't install prewar wing on it. if it is a prewar, make sure if it is a deluxe the wings have 15 ribs for the 1200 gross weight. if standard prewar, 13 ribs wings will be legal to use.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

Like I said, I have a 2 planes with stick ribs and one with stamped, but having worked with both, the stamped ribs are superior in almost every way. I would NEVER replace the stick ribs on the 41 or Josh's 40 with stamped (I am an originality fanatic) but Taylorcraft was once again showing the superiority of their engineering to Piper when they went to the sheet metal rib wings. Piper was extremely resistant to change and for the tiny increase in weight you get so many advantages.
The fact (and it is a fact) that so many Pipers are so successful with the stick ribs is accepted, but that doesn't overcome the additional fact, that the stamped ribs are better, and would be in a Super Cub too.
Hank

My professional opinion, yours may not be the same. ;-)

[astjp2]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

Hank, 99% of the super cubs use those ribs, and they fly the heck out of those airplanes. Tim

Honestly the pre-war ribs are lighter but much more fragile. The only reason I can see for using them is if you have a pre-war plane and want to keep it completely original. I have the "T" stick ribs in the 41 and the stamped sheet ones in the 45. There is no comparison. If you plan to FLY your plane the late model design wings are much more robust and will serve you better. Sell the stick ribs to someone who wants to do a "purist" rebuild and, no offense, but the guy who wants $2,000 for the stack of ribs on e-Bay is out of his mind. They have been listed MANY times and always clocked out with no bids. NO ONE bids on them. They would need to be made from Gold sheet for me to pay that much for them! If I had to MAKE them from scratch I would probably not charge $100 each for them. I would offer an even up trade between stamped and stick ribs and that would be a good deal for the stamped ones since they wouldn't need to be repaired.
Hank

Just my opinion, having worked with both types, and I hope the guy selling the stick ribs isn't a Tribe member. Just my opinion on the utility of the two types.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Pre/Post War Wings

Honestly the pre-war ribs are lighter but much more fragile. The only reason I can see for using them is if you have a pre-war plane and want to keep it completely original. I have the "T" stick ribs in the 41 and the stamped sheet ones in the 45. There is no comparison. If you plan to FLY your plane the late model design wings are much more robust and will serve you better. Sell the stick ribs to someone who wants to do a "purist" rebuild and, no offense, but the guy who wants $2,000 for the stack of ribs on e-Bay is out of his mind. They have been listed MANY times and always clocked out with no bids. NO ONE bids on them. They would need to be made from Gold sheet for me to pay that much for them! If I had to MAKE them from scratch I would probably not charge $100 each for them. I would offer an even up trade between stamped and stick ribs and that would be a good deal for the stamped ones since they wouldn't need to be repaired.
Hank

Just my opinion, having worked with both types, and I hope the guy selling the stick ribs isn't a Tribe member. Just my opinion on the utility of the two types.