"D" Window paterns

[Hank Jarrett]

All,
I know you all won't believe it but I finally found the drawings of the 41 and 45 "D" window frames. I have messages from Dale Jewett, R.M. Pearson and Mike Jones as asking for copies.

The post war ones are the stamped sheet metal frames with the smaller windows. The late ones are much bigger and more rectangular. I DO NOT have those. I am pretty sure there was an intermediate sized frame too which I also never had.

The pre war "D" windows were very close in size and shape to the early post war ones, only with wood frames. The pre war drawings I made are of the frames I reverse engineered for my 41 and the "hole" is the same size and shape but the wood is softer, lighter easier to fabricate and has more area to support the glass. The strength is actually higher than the original (now that I have finally seen how Taylorcraft actually did it) because there is more wood. The original frames appear to have been laminated from thin strip and the screws that hold the outer frame and plexi need to be VERY accurately placed to hit the laminated wood. I think one reason so many of the original frames are not around any more is the thin wood rots out. My replacement frames are wider and should last the life of the aircraft. When I replaced my frames there was a pile of rotten wood behind the headliner with the window held in by the screws through the fabric.

If someone has a laminated 41 frame I can borrow I will do drawings of it for those who want originality. I "think" if you use modern sealing materials on one and CAREFULLY align the parts it could be made to work. When I recover I would like to try it. But then I'm nuts enough to want to go for total originality. If it doesn't work I will reuse my frames.

Bottom line, If Dale, Richard, Mike (or any others) want a copy of the drawings please drop me an email at hjarrett2 at cox dot net with your mailing address and which one you want. The copy cost was $2 for the 1945 frame drawing and $1 for the 41 plus postage (engineering and drafting is free).

Hank

P.S.
Yes, I know I already have some of your mailing addresses, but do you REALLY want to wait till I dig those out too?

[Pearson]

Re: "D" Window paterns

Hank,
I will not be needing a copy of the drawings. I went ahead and made my own frames using a copy of the larger post war windows. Thanks!

[Ragwing nut]

Re: "D" Window paterns

All,
I know you all won't believe it but I finally found the drawings of the 41 and 45 "D" window frames. I have messages from Dale Jewett, R.M. Pearson and Mike Jones as asking for copies.

The post war ones are the stamped sheet metal frames with the smaller windows. The late ones are much bigger and more rectangular. I DO NOT have those. I am pretty sure there was an intermediate sized frame too which I also never had.

The pre war "D" windows were very close in size and shape to the early post war ones, only with wood frames. The pre war drawings I made are of the frames I reverse engineered for my 41 and the "hole" is the same size and shape but the wood is softer, lighter easier to fabricate and has more area to support the glass. The strength is actually higher than the original (now that I have finally seen how Taylorcraft actually did it) because there is more wood. The original frames appear to have been laminated from thin strip and the screws that hold the outer frame and plexi need to be VERY accurately placed to hit the laminated wood. I think one reason so many of the original frames are not around any more is the thin wood rots out. My replacement frames are wider and should last the life of the aircraft. When I replaced my frames there was a pile of rotten wood behind the headliner with the window held in by the screws through the fabric.

If someone has a laminated 41 frame I can borrow I will do drawings of it for those who want originality. I "think" if you use modern sealing materials on one and CAREFULLY align the parts it could be made to work. When I recover I would like to try it. But then I'm nuts enough to want to go for total originality. If it doesn't work I will reuse my frames.

Bottom line, If Dale, Richard, Mike (or any others) want a copy of the drawings please drop me an email at hjarrett2 at cox dot net with your mailing address and which one you want. The copy cost was $2 for the 1945 frame drawing and $1 for the 41 plus postage (engineering and drafting is free).

Hank

P.S.
Yes, I know I already have some of your mailing addresses, but do you REALLY want to wait till I dig those out too?

pm me your address, i will send you a laminated original deluxe frame, I also have stamped NOS frames for prewar doors

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: "D" Window paterns

PM sent 9:30 EST
Hank

[Jim Herpst]

Re: "D" Window paterns

pm me your address, i will send you a laminated original deluxe frame, I also have stamped NOS frames for prewar doors

? Do you have actual NOS door frames for pre war or the doors or ? Or do you mean the D window frames for pre war door aircraft,,, sorry so dence!!

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: "D" Window paterns

No problem Jim, Ragwing said HE had a metal door frame from a pre war plane. All of the ones I have seen were wood (like the ones on my 41 and 45). On my 41 I have wood doors too. The 45 has steel tube doors that weren't used on that many planes. I asked him to send some pictures of the metal door frames but you missed that part because we were talking off group.
The drawings I have are for the original metal "D" window frames for a post war and the wood frames I designed for a pre war. Ragwing had an original wood frame for a pre war and I am hoping to borrow it to make a drawing.
You were probably confused because you missed a part of the conversation where we swapped addresses off line.
Hank

You aren't dense at all, just missing some information. Sorry for the confusion.

[Ragwing nut]

Re: "D" Window paterns

? Do you have actual NOS door frames for pre war or the doors or ? Or do you mean the D window frames for pre war door aircraft,,, sorry so dence!!

stamped metal window frames for prewar tube type doors. Deluxe had the wood window frames that nailed to the wood door frames

[Jim Herpst]

Re: "D" Window paterns

Ok thanks guys. My clip wing project (actually a 41 that I am clipping ) must have been a deluxe. It has wooden D Windows and a wood frame attaching to the fuselage around the entry doors. The doors themselves are metal ...aluminum skinned will try to lighten by use of fabric....

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: "D" Window paterns

Jim,
LOTS of planes had "D" windows added and most of the time they did it with wood frames (usually plywood sheet). A lot of early planes also changed over to the sheet metal doors and they wouldn't fit in the original frames. It could be that your plane has been modified to fit the later doors and someone added the "D" windows since as far as I know there were no sheet metal doors prior to the war. The only ones I have found documentation for were wood or steel tube. Not a real problem, especially if you are going clip wing. I would add a skylight too when you clip the wings. It gives you a bit more headroom and really improves the view in a turn. You DO NOT need the huge square skylight. Even two small triangle ones give plenty of visability and don't roast you in the summer like the big ones do.
Hank

[Jim Herpst]

Re: "D" Window paterns

My 41 has wood (not plywood ) D frames hmm look to be very old but well preserved with varnish (lots of it) !! Doors follow the orginal contiour opening( as in along the brace next to the seat...) like all the prewar planes I have seen as orginal BUT I agree .... I would think an aluminum door as post war...strange mine follow the orginal smaller sized door but yet also has door catch that has the same hardware I have seen on later BC12D doors BUT the inside latch is directly oposite the outside one... (thought BC12Ds were more in the middle of the interior side...perhaps not just gettting forgetful in my older age). Actually I like the tube and Fabric doors... I may just lighten these up if possible without making enm flimsy.. More I look at this 41 the more I like it with the Three hinge control tail section(s) .While my panel was toast I really like the orginal 41 interior( and exterior) fav of all T crafts. I am making this Clip to look like it pays respect to the 41 and kinda brings afew Mono coup touches to the whole schebang.

[3Dreaming]

Re: "D" Window paterns

My dad's airplane had the wood frame doors sheeted with aluminum in the field as a repair. Tom

[Jim Herpst]

Re: "D" Window paterns

Yes. Thats what is so strange about this one. It has an aluminum frame BUT again follows the orginal smaller old style opening. Looks to be factory perhaps someone just did a really good job modifying a later BC 12D door... (Like Hank suggests)any how I am going to remove the aluminum skin on the interior portion at least and modify the door catch to be a simple afair more akin to the early tube and fabric door.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: "D" Window paterns

Be sure to get your mechanics buy in before you change anything. If it would help there are pictures of the original wood doors, the later metal doors and the tube doors so he can see what has been changed already and how your additional changes either improve on what was changed before or at least takes you back closer to something that is supposed to be there.
You don't want to make a change that grounds your plane or takes it out of compliance with the certified configuration (which it may well be right now).
Hank

SAFE first, mechanic approved second, in compliance third.

Your mechanic may want to switch the last two, but NEVER compromise on the first!

[Jim Herpst]

Re: "D" Window paterns

Merry Christmas all ! Have a second for the e-mail. Yes Hank I agree on all counts.