Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

[flyguy]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Have to stay non-profit, right??
DC

[crispy critter]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Guys,if this could be pulled off,"BIG IF", is it legal for us as members to donate the purchase money to the foundation and then let the foundation purchace the rights and the everyone who puts up money could count it as a tax right off ?

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

I wouldn't get too worried about some white knight high roller zapping Mr. Patrick with his money laser. Chances are
the last several months have been used making the quiet contacts. An agreeable price has not been struck. Harry and Mr. Patrick think one thing and the back-channel money boys think another. We could get it if:
1. We don't get crazy for coco-puffs in a hurry. While Harry owned it... he didn't move the ball that far. He just wasted 6 years of our hopes. So some other fancy pants is likely to do the same.
2. The price is yest to be determined. Offering it for sale is just one determining factor.
3. Expertise is hard to come by. Almost anybody that knows anything about Taylorcrafts is here, amongst us.
4. LSA, 100Hp, auto-start,24 gallons of gas, and $10K less than a Legend Cub is the market for new. However, start with parts is less sexy but the only way to give this proposed company the mouth-to-mouth it needs to live. Parts ain't sexy enough for entrepeneurs -- but it's just the girl for us.
Regarding puffing on my pipe... I don't inhale, and I habitually cough up all the bad stuff. How's that?
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[Larry Lyons]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

OK OK count me in for a share, I agree with Hank, Ed and Burell. We are the most likely candidates to own this heap. And we are the only ones that could possibly get it out of debt. We go in not looking to make a profit, nor rebuild it so we can sell it for a profit. We are in for the long haul and to preserve the Taylorcraft as a classic plane, not your newest Wizz Bang LSA. Remember, a lot of what you see when someone comes in to pick up the pieces, they are doing so to get it back to where some other dummy thinks it looks like a good investment. They sell, take the money and run, and the new owner is left to try and make it a go! :boxing:
Larry

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

First to Forrest’s question, YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING!!!! I would NEVER split from the fold; I just want to iron the sheets a little. Hopefully you were talking about another thread and don’t think I would split from the tribe! You aren’t getting rid of me THAT easy.
Second is to Bill Berle on the value of the company, SPOT ON! The value of the company is what we can get it for. The key here is if there is a fire sale we all DON’T want to start a bidding war among OURSELVES! Let’s buy it as a group with US being the only bidder. I don’t want to “cheat” the current owner but if he sold it to Harry for $38,000 and Harry still owed $xx,xxx on the bill, then $xx,xxx would be a fair start for a purchase price. If we sell enough shares to pay $xx,xxx and have money available to set up the fixtures for folks to rebuild their fuselage somewhere or make some parts, so much the better!
Now for Ed O’Brien, PUT THAT STINKING PIPE OUT AND GET IN OUT OF THE WEATHER! We want you around for a while! Also, you got some good points on having existing manufacturers make parts, but the first step is get legal rights to the paperwork and tools. I’m for letting the “board” or whatever negotiate anything they want to help the tribe. I figure we will put people we trust on the board. THAT part doesn’t worry me a bit. When Forrest says “wait one till I can talk about it”, that is exactly what I do. I’m not worried he (or any of you guys) is going to skip town with my lunch money.
A crack pot entrepreneur coming out of the woodwork DOES worry me. If it happens, maybe we should try and sell him a plane instead and get him in the group. Save him some money and keep us away from another “Harry” situation.
Hank

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

$750K is too much, agreed. You might think of this as a "Dutch Auction" not a sale. SEE DEFINITION BELOW.

With regards;
ED OBRIEN
NOUN:
An auction in which an item is initially offered at a high price that is progressively lowered until a bid is made and the item sold.

[flyguy]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Bill,
Sounds like a pretty good assesment of the situation to me. Maybe one disagreement. Perhaps you would be amazed at how many crack-pot entrepreneurs are willing to jump on such a deal using some other fool's money. I'm not talking about anyone of our group, rather some greasy used-car-salesman Harry clone that wouldn't know a good airplane if he saw one.
Darryl

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

OK... instead of a Club Company... and there are examples of this, most are run by rich guys with money to burn and they do burn it... howabout a financing/bond-package built on a basic purchase of factory equipment. This equipment (tools, jig, drawings, etc) then is GIVEN to Univair, Wag-Aero, and Alaska Struts (whatever their name is now) each of these companies then pay off the loan/bond/at an agreed price over an agreed time period. We members agree to purchase the products from them. The financing plan at say $1.5million means:
1. This plan distributes the various PMAs so that there's competition on price, quality, and performance.
2.We are getting the expertise of these parts manufactuers in the bargain (although not for free they will get a profit)
3. We get a club member's discount price. Which helps the club with membership and the PMAs with volume.
4. The orginal bondholders have a better chance of getting paid back.
5. Univair, Wag-Aero, etc. become stakeholders in making and stocking parts... because they want to pay-off the bondholders.
6. FAA, having already worked with these PMAs, is more moliable, pacified, and helpful.
7. Make part of the package employing someone like Forrest Barber, Terry Bowden, other members... as PMA
"overseers" to make sure things are kept on track, services provided, and thing attended too. It's a parttime job... but responsibility to bondholders and the club. Accounting and payback of loan/bond also is included in this executive package.
8. Every part is accounted for. All parts are available. Price is at market and slight discount for members. Repayment is assured. FAA is attended to. Club isn't responsible for negligence, lawsuits (unless finance blows-up) Forrest and Terry (or anyone else we elect with expertise) makes some money. We have solid companies in our corner.
Kick it around. I'll be in the lobby puffing on my pipe. Get back to me when you're done chewing on that.
With regards; ED OBRIEN

[John O]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Hi! Count me in for $750... it seems like a great opportunity to support existing aircraft and perhaps build new.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Reality Check ! ANYONE who is considering spending money on this should stop and read this. Before I even start with the negatives, I am definitely in on the idea of buying the company. But as my 10th grade history teacher said before final exams... "Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it". Another educated man said "A fool and his money are soon parted", and yet another wise man said "There's a sucker born every minute".

1: Anyone who has looked through Trade-a-Plane (and now Barnstormers.com) long enough knows that there is an enormous difference between asking price and selling price. Asking price is affected by many things, such as some idiot spent $150,000 to have a J-3 Cub professionally restored when a decent Cub is still a $15 or 20 thousand dollar airplane on the cash market and maybe an Oshkosh champion is worth 25 or 30. Asking prices in aviation have now degraded into a humorous fishing expedition with less and less link to reality.

2: Value is determined by the marketplace... period. Business 101.

3: The things that affect value in the mind of the marketplace are strange concepts like goodwill (how good of a reputation your company has), business practices (such as not honoring existing paid strut orders and looking bad at a VERY critical moment), history of operational success (900 bankruptcies over 70 years), I could go on. The reality is that Taylorcraft has a very low value score in this area.

4: Value is also determined in most cases by multiplying the yearly profit by some number of years. If your hamburger stand profits $50,000 then you can ask 3 or 5 times that for the business ASSUMING that there are no impending problems. It matters not whether the potential buyer wants to operate it at a profit... the dollar value of a business is determined by the dollars it makes or is capable of making. The reality is that Taylorcraft loses money and has been a lawsuit magnet for 70 years.

5: Bankrupt companies and bankrupt assets are usually valued as "cents on the dollar", which means CASH paid versus APPRAISED value. This ranges from a few cents on a dollar to maybe thirty or forty cents on a dollar. Someone said that Harry paid $38,000 on the back steps of the courthouse. That was before he made his contribution to the profitability and value and reputation of Taylorcraft! Now honestly, everyone... Scot, Harvey, Harry, Elvis, Warren... how much do you think the appraised value of Taylorcraft will be under these current conditions?

I have no personal axe to grind with Harvey or Scot... never met 'em, never heard anything bad about 'em. I wish them the best of luck. I mean no personal offense guys, seriously. But let me see if I can find some entertaining parallels to more accurately illustrate the strength of your business position here:

You are standing on the deck of the Titanic, as an iceberg named Ingram has just made a minor cosmetic improvement to your ship and is STILL VISIBLE CLEARLY in the distance. You are waving a sign that says "For Sale - $10 Million invested, low time, priced for quick sale at $9.5 Million... be the captain of your own ship!"

You are a used car salesman, in a high oil market with gas prices above $4.00 a gallon. You have a 1965 Cadillac, which gets 5 miles a gallon. You are waving a sign that says "Luxury car for sale. Salvage title after a series of 17 total wrecks. Former owners include Donn King, PT Barnum, Gengis Khan, Adolf Hitler and Michael Vick. Has bad brakes, no compression, only drives in reverse, minor corrosion (which you can see by looking through the floorboards to see the tranny fluid puddle under the car), and flat tires. New replacement cost from GM $50,000... priced for quick sale at $35,000 ! This is a CLASSIC CAR, folks!"

You operate a dating service for affluent men, connecting them with desirable females for romance and possibly marriage. Your roster of women to send out on these dates includes Zsa Zsa Gabor, Bella Abzug, Hillary Clinton, Imelda Marcos, Whitney Houston, Rosie O'Donnell and Barbara Bush. You are advertising in the Wall Street Journal to sell your dating service for only $10 Million , even though you have $20 Million invested. You had spent the $20 Million on building your company's worldwide image and marketability by appointing Rosie O'Donnell as your poster girl and "the face" of your dating service. You have no idea why your phone is not ringing from the Wall Street Journal ad.

Sorry again for the bad news. I have no personal problem with Mr. Patrick or Mr. Ruffner at ALL, save for my disappointment with the decision to not honor the paid strut orders (If you want to show up in this biker bar wearing Harry's smelly shirt, that's your decision).

I think I can speak for many of us when I say we are interested in buying the company's physical assets. But your assessment of the value is off by an order of magnitude. What Harry paid for it that day on the courtroom steps is a lot closer to the reality.

And last but not least, this group of strange airplane owners is the ONLY potential customer that would have any reason to be interested.

Univair has already owned it and let it go. Wag Aero is wrapped up in Piper stuff and has their own LSA in the works. Alaska Airframes is in the Cub business so their plate is full. There are a hundred new LSA designs and the market is filled with airplanes for sale on a fly-away today basis. LSA companies are for sale to investors with NO lawsuits pending, no bad image, no history of failure, and a larger potential market of Rotax/nosewheel/smooth composite - loving little yuppie ninnies.

Third time... sorry for the bad news and sorry for the rough treatment. I'm in when it comes time to pony up money for a share. You can blame whoever you want for letting Harry do the damage he did and letting it go on for so long.

Your company is worth something less than $100,000 in the real world.
ops:

[taylorcraftbc65]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

AMEN Howard,AMEN. Brie

This is the reason! To have a better handle on our own destiny and that of our airplanes. There are still thousands of T-crafts flying today. Mine will be 70 years old next January! PARTS, FLEET SUPPORT, GROUP BUYS, NO STAB-IN-THE-BACK AD's....etc.
New airplanes are a whole 'nother gig, and should probably be set on the waaaay back burner for now.
The Luscombe Foundation seems to suit the role for their mark, (even though there has been friction at times there). We can learn from others so that we don't make the same mistakes.
With stockholders and a limited board of directors this could work. Yeah I know lots of details. Think about this though; If you are a stockholder you can write off your trip to the annual stockholders meeting in Alliance every year. Hmmm maybe we need a couple of regional owner's meeting too.....
Our little airplanes at this time in their history deserve an organization to maintain and preserve them, both mechanically and with our hearts. Not for the next dollar.................if done right those will come later.

[Howard Wilson]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

What it WILL do is allow us to at least have a chance of controlling the future of Taylorcraft.

This is the reason! To have a better handle on our own destiny and that of our airplanes. There are still thousands of T-crafts flying today. Mine will be 70 years old next January! PARTS, FLEET SUPPORT, GROUP BUYS, NO STAB-IN-THE-BACK AD's....etc.
New airplanes are a whole 'nother gig, and should probably be set on the waaaay back burner for now.
The Luscombe Foundation seems to suit the role for their mark, (even though there has been friction at times there). We can learn from others so that we don't make the same mistakes.
With stockholders and a limited board of directors this could work. Yeah I know lots of details. Think about this though; If you are a stockholder you can write off your trip to the annual stockholders meeting in Alliance every year. Hmmm maybe we need a couple of regional owner's meeting too.....
Our little airplanes at this time in their history deserve an organization to maintain and preserve them, both mechanically and with our hearts. Not for the next dollar.................if done right those will come later.

[Carrieve]

Re: The assets are for sale. Anyone ready to pony up?

This sounds like a good idea. Look at the Green Bay Packers who are owned by their fans and not just one person. Count me in. Maybe I can go and rob a bank to help out. (Just kidding)

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

It appears as if the TC, equipment, tooling, PMA, trained personel, and Harry are all headed in seperate directions. Putting the company and manufacturing capability back together would be an undertaking of large and extended proportion. I'd say more than 2 or 3 times the initial
$750K... given that the factory never got to build any planes on an already approved design. Then, 5 to 10 times the initial cost would be more reasonable. AND, this would be to just get started... advertising, marketing, dealer set-up extra.
My point being if you've got $3 million... you've got a start... but you'll need $1 or 2 million credit line more at minimum. Don't forget you've got to buy engines and exercise options on those engines. Get stock for all of the parts. Train people. Move to a new location. Sort out what is where and how much you've got of everything from old finished parts to new screws and bolts.

SO...If one could build an $85K airplane with $20K clean profit (which is very optimistic)... you'd need to sell 250-300 planes to cover your financing alone. If you include above the line needs, taxes, marketing etc... you're at 500 planes before you get the financing paid off. Give or take 5 percent either way. So take heed and do the proper due diligence before you leap on this thing. It's a big nut to eat every month and you've got to crack it first. Otherwise, Mr. Patrick would likely keep it all together. His costs would be less, given that he's in already in.
Meaning, If Mr. Patrick wants to sell... how can anyone else get to profit dollar one?
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

All is well, we have merged the threads, I have talked briefly with Scot Ruffner
he is manning the phones, posts are correct, he is going to have an inventory of what is for sale.
The present factory operation; Taylorcraft Aviation , LLC in Brownsville, Tx. is continuing to operate and will try to continue.
Scot is now registered and can post comments as a guest.
Big Ice storm coming in 24 hrs to Ohio valley .... brrrrrr