Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

[FlyJeffJ]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-10-08

This is troublesome. Here is my 2 cents. It will take about twice as much working capital as the initial investment. At 750K that means about 1.5M /yr to run the company. I would expect 3 to 5 years to be profitable again. Too many witches spoil the brew, so any more than a single owner or partnership at will be a bust. So, if there is a Venture Capitalist out there, I'm willing to provide my knowledge of the industry, marketing and sales consulting and business development to help make it a go. It would be a shame to lose such an American Icon, but I also think it should be a carefully planned endeavor or it will fail again. Best

[Robert Bradbury]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

How do you make a fortune in airplanes? Start with a larger fortune. Anyone thinking of building airplanes for profit in todays market is smoking a crack pipe. My grandpa and I tried to tell the factory this in the 80's and early 90's when we were parts dealers for the factory. Tried to tell Harry this when he started as well. Everyone has a pipe dream to be an airplane manufacturer. If everyone here had any idea how difficult it is to deal with the FAA on a manufacturing level (I know a few of you do), not to mention the liability, you would run from the idea. How do I know this, for those that don't know, I own Falcon Propellers and operate and maintain 26 Type Certificates.

I for one have no illusion of ever making a red cent selling the Tcraft. I'm
just one of many who would like to keep the plane alive and have some support in terms of parts availability as necessary. I'm experimental anyway
so for me no biggy, I can have my own parts fabricated without FAA or as in my case the DOT involved .

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

How do you make a fortune in airplanes? Start with a larger fortune. Anyone thinking of building airplanes for profit in todays market is smoking a crack pipe. My grandpa and I tried to tell the factory this in the 80's and early 90's when we were parts dealers for the factory. Tried to tell Harry this when he started as well. Everyone has a pipe dream to be an airplane manufacturer. If everyone here had any idea how difficult it is to deal with the FAA on a manufacturing level (I know a few of you do), not to mention the liability, you would run from the idea. How do I know this, for those that don't know, I own Falcon Propellers and operate and maintain 26 Type Certificates.

[Robert Bradbury]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

MY BIG MF did the job real well during the BIG snow, ;plus the 3/4 Ton Dodge Plow truck , I did 78 miles pushing snow. GOT HER DONE TOO!
Yes David we can discuss a lot tomorrow as we take three sets of struts for NDT ( ultrasound) testing. The "assets" is the big hangup.
Sometimes I feel that the proper thing to do is start all over with a complete re design brought up to current standards and methods .
Keep the basic plan form , change to a larger cabin, modern landing gear, easier entry, fuel in wings only, etc.... All this has been discussed at the think tank back in Lock Haven in 1992.
New upgraded design, new type engine, LSA, then make a 1500 Gross, 1750 and 2000 if needed. Take a look around at the neat ships coming out now!! Still produce all parts for the older Models under a PMA ......
Ah sweet dreams !

I could go the $1000 if we get enough members, possibly more if necessary.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

MY BIG MF did the job real well during the BIG snow, ;plus the 3/4 Ton Dodge Plow truck , I did 78 miles pushing snow. GOT HER DONE TOO!
Yes David we can discuss a lot tomorrow as we take three sets of struts for NDT ( ultrasound) testing. The "assets" is the big hangup.
Sometimes I feel that the proper thing to do is start all over with a complete re design brought up to current standards and methods .
Keep the basic plan form , change to a larger cabin, modern landing gear, easier entry, fuel in wings only, etc.... All this has been discussed at the think tank back in Lock Haven in 1992.
New upgraded design, new type engine, LSA, then make a 1500 Gross, 1750 and 2000 if needed. Take a look around at the neat ships coming out now!! Still produce all parts for the older Models under a PMA ......
Ah sweet dreams !

[jdoran]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Forrest,

I used to have a tractor like that also. I never just came out and called it an MF when it wouldn't start though.

Reminds me of the time I was boarding a commuter flight and the guy in front of me hit his head on the top of the door frame. He uttered an expletive, and the flight attendant said "actually it's pronounced FOKKER sir"

[Howard Wilson]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

There has to be some 'right of reversion'. of the tangible and intelectual property. Maybe a long term lease of the tooling, jigs, drawings, etc... owned by some form of the Foundation ie: BOD and voting membership, with certain specified performance criteria required of the leasee.

[dewhitaker]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

OK... instead of a Club Company... and there are examples of this, most are run by rich guys with money to burn and they do burn it... howabout a financing/bond-package built on a basic purchase of factory equipment. This equipment (tools, jig, drawings, etc) then is GIVEN to Univair, Wag-Aero, and Alaska Struts (whatever their name is now) each of these companies then pay off the loan/bond/at an agreed price over an agreed time period. We members agree to purchase the products from them. The financing plan at say $1.5million means:
1. This plan distributes the various PMAs so that there's competition on price, quality, and performance.
2.We are getting the expertise of these parts manufactuers in the bargain (although not for free they will get a profit)
3. We get a club member's discount price. Which helps the club with membership and the PMAs with volume.
4. The orginal bondholders have a better chance of getting paid back.
5. Univair, Wag-Aero, etc. become stakeholders in making and stocking parts... because they want to pay-off the bondholders.
6. FAA, having already worked with these PMAs, is more moliable, pacified, and helpful.
7. Make part of the package employing someone like Forrest Barber, Terry Bowden, other members... as PMA
"overseers" to make sure things are kept on track, services provided, and thing attended too. It's a parttime job... but responsibility to bondholders and the club. Accounting and payback of loan/bond also is included in this executive package.
8. Every part is accounted for. All parts are available. Price is at market and slight discount for members. Repayment is assured. FAA is attended to. Club isn't responsible for negligence, lawsuits (unless finance blows-up) Forrest and Terry (or anyone else we elect with expertise) makes some money. We have solid companies in our corner.
Kick it around. I'll be in the lobby puffing on my pipe. Get back to me when you're done chewing on that.
With regards; ED OBRIEN

Tribe, I really like Ed's direction he is going for this. The idea behind getting control of the intelectual property, and allowing someone else with expertise in manufacturing make the parts, is a sound one. To rebuild the great Taylorcraft reputation is going to take some very credible individuals collectivly working together! We have that in this group.

The profit motive is something that needs to be kept rained in. Everyone needs to understand that the profit margins are very small. These are more labors of love than money makers.

My connection with Taylorcraft goes clear back to when C.G. first came to Alliance, and my grandfather was his Chief Mechanic. Al Barber was a test pilot, and Forrest's Dad. My Dad, Lou Whitaker, and Forrest grew up around these airplanes. The airplane my Dad and I own together, N36468, was probably worked on by my grandfather when brand new, and the logbooks show it was test flown by Al Barber. Forrest was gracious enough to recently re-create that test flight on the Butterfly's birthday.

Now before I get too teary eyed emotional to type, guys and gals, lets try to preserve this great aircraft. I will be willing to contribute to something in the direction Ed is suggesting.

[Chet Peek]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

First, Forrest, I applaud your efforts in this matter which I know have gone on for several years. I would also suggest that we all read Chapter 12 of THE TAYLORCRAFT STORY again, for a bit of bankruptcy history.
Buying "assets" is a tricky business, they can have all sorts of leins, etc attached. Some good legal minds should weigh in on this, and I'm not one of them.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

There are parts here in Alliance and a lot of places. THAT is the purpose of the forumn to have the owners and restorers a place to exchange information.
Many sources are out there and listed on the WEB site too!

Here in Alliance Barber aircraft sells the parts it has ;
check www.barberaircraft.com direct e-mail is [email protected]

[tim]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

The Taylorcraft Foundation is exclusively organized for charitable, educational & scientific purposes and will preserve the history and technical information of the Taylorcraft airplanes

i think its time we start to preserve are PARTS !!!! too if we cant get parts we cant fly

just like that

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Dutch Auctions are neat, I have done them. Usually used for flowers and sometimes tobacco.
Keep the information flow going, the last time around , many buyers did not own a Taylorcraft, they wanted to use somebodys money to buy something for themselves , get Government grants , puff their chests out and say they owned something.
EDIT: OOOPs , just checked back on thread, Hell no Hank we need you I was refering to splitting the threads, this monitor stuff is neat , BOB Ollerton warned me to watch out for a meglomanic (sp) attack. many good ideas are emerging....

I believe that I can share with all that the intention of the owner of Taylorcraft 2000LLC , Mr. Harvey Patrick, is , if it does not sell in place, to move it to Florida. I will keep checking the situation tomorrow.
HOPE THIS damn Winter storm peters out!!!
Got the BIG tractor running today. MF 2705 . IT was a loose ground off the main battery(s) cable.
see attachemnt . Would you buy a used airplane from this guy!!

[Tom Garrick]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Very well said Bill. Lets not forget that Harvey and D&E have been the folks supporting Harry all these years while they stole and cheated so many friends and Taylorcraft owners.

Tom Garrick

[flylo]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

flyguy
Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08
Have to stay non-profit, right??
DC


Not making a profit would be the easy part! :doh:

[VictorBravo]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

is it legal for us as members to donate the purchase money to the foundation and then let the foundation purchace the rights and the everyone who puts up money could count it as a tax right off ?

YES it is. That is exactly the right way to do it as well.

The first thing is that Harvey Patrick should donate the assets to the foundation and get a $750,000 donation write-off. If he pays taxes or has investments or income, then this method will get him the largest amount of money in his hands of any possible outcome.

If he is plain old not smart enough to do it that way, then after he pays storage fees for all this stuff, waits a year for Bill Gates to come in with money to buy it, and finally figures out that nobody with any business sense in or out of aviation would buy it at a six figure price...

THEN the Foundation can send out an appeal to its members asking for donations to purchase the assets. If 1000 members donate 50 or 75 bucks each, then there's a chunk of change that would be an appropriate price for the TC's, tools and engineering data. The foundation members get a tax write-off on their donation, taking that 50 or 75 bucks off of their taxable income.

There is NO VALUE WHATSOEVER to ANY business entity named Taylorcraft at this moment. In fact the business entity has not only devalued itself to zero but it has managed to devalue the physical assets along with itself.... that's quite an accomplishment! It's like screwing up your house with toxic waste so bad that it lowers the property value to half of what the empty lot would go for!

Any venture capital investor worth the fin on his back would smell this a mile off. Five minutes research on Harry Ingram, an hour reading Chet's book about all the stock swindles and bankruptcies, and seeing the awkward silence / non-action / apparent complicity on some level by D&E... and Elvis has left the building.

By not donating the assets to the Foundation, and insisting on a cash sale, Mr. Patrick in this case would only get the 50 or 75 grand the members would cough up instead of the 250 grand in write-offs he would have gotten if he just donated it to the foundation... but that would be his loss and not our problem. That would be his penance for supporting and financing Harry Ingram and then sitting by while Harry turned his asset into junk.

Mr. Patrick, if you're reading this, no offense is intended at all, but like the song says "you gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em".

Sorry Sir... but it's time to fold 'em.

You can get a couple or three hundred grand worth of write-offs by folding your hand now at the right moment, or you can wait until the cards are all on the table and find that your hand is worth a quarter of that.