For the Record

[Scott]

Hi All
First of all a big shout out to all who make this site possible and volunteer their time to keep it functional and secure. It is a hugely valuable resource for Taylorcraft owners and GA owners and operators in general.

What makes it so valuable is the input that comes from many different people, in many different places, with different backgrounds, knowledge and specialities. Collectively creating a knowledge and reference base that is both comprehensive and current.

That is why I would never like to see discussion curtailed on any subject unless there is truly no alternative.

It's easy to let emotions get the better of us and I'm thankful to Mods that call out members when they get personal or break the rules. Beyond that, discussion should and will conclude when there is nothing more to add. Truncating discussion limits learning, and leaves members clinging to positions, and generally causes a reluctance to participate in the future.

Thankfully it doesn't happen often and so, respectfully, I think there is time to reflect long and hard prior to cutting off discussion by closing a thread. Let the members, within the boundaries of civility, decide when a discussion has run its course.

Felt the need to get that off my chest. Again with the greatest respect for all those involved in making this site possible.

[N96337]

Re: For the Record

Amen, Scott!!! As soon as facts are brought up, it got closed. Sad deal and not the way to get actual, factual information out there!
John

[Garry Crookham]

Re: For the Record

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one with a bad taste in my mouth over the thread being locked. We all have a responsibility to provide factual info. There's a lot of good info provided on this site and unfortunately a lot of bad info, too.
And yes we all need to thank Bob Ollerton, the site administrator for providing this forum. It's probably time again for all of us to send him some $$ to help support the site.

[PA1195]

Re: For the Record

How are we to learn from ourselves and others unless there's vigorous debate? Yes we have to be civil, but this isn't about sticks and stones and no bones were broken.

Gary

[astjp2]

Re: For the Record

Even I was starting to see that the comments went from informative/subjective to attack the person, and I am one of the biggest dicks on here...so feel free to vent but please keep it civil and lets get back to talking airplane stuff....Dr. Tim

[PA1195]

Re: For the Record

Ok Tim. What's the final outcome of that thread? Stitch or not on any rib? With a clear answer there'd be no need for further discussion.

Gary

[astjp2]

Re: For the Record

If you do the paperwork and the process correctly, its allowed. Not necessary but allowed.

[PA1195]

Re: For the Record

That's a civil and reasonable response. Carefully use proper materials per approved procedures. Thanks Tim.

Gary

[N96337]

Re: For the Record

I guess I'm the one that's being accused of attacking...well sorry, that wasn't an attack. I have plenty of respect for Hank, and value his opinion and intelligence on many of these issues, but I'm not afraid to point out when he's wrong either. Same goes for me...if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. We were being sold opinion and being told it was fact, and even when physical evidence was being presented, it was being ignored. If I was a new owner, trying to cover a wing, and had bad holes or no original wire, I'd come away from that thread thinking I was sunk, and that if I tried to rib stitch it would fail. That's not the facts....that's opinions. In fact at one point Hank said if it was an experimental, it'd be fine, then later said it was unsafe again. That makes NO sense to me. A letter was provided, saying that the ACO (FAA Aircraft Certification Office) was in concurrence to rib stitch an F19 (Same rib!), Tim stated that he had a field approval and other field approvals were shown, but it was denied. That's opinion, not fact.
Sorry Hank, if I offended you, that wasn't my intention, but like I said, I'm dealing with facts. I do this for a living....and I'm pretty damned serious about safety, and doing it right... so please don't discount someone's opinion with a bit more experience.
I'm done.
John

[flylo]

Re: For the Record

I don't think there is one answer that fits all in this case. You know how the FAA is at different locations & different IAs. Seems like most of us have had no problem with stitching if done with anti chafe tape as has been standard practice but it must not work that way everywhere. So go ahead turn the dead horse over & beat the other side for a while & you won't get anymore info & the horse can only get so dead but carry on.

[astjp2]

Re: For the Record

Tim stated that he had a field approval and other field approvals were shown, but it was denied. That's opinion, not fact.
John

I have 2 field approvals for F-19's, one for rib lacing and one for Marson rivets. You lost me at the, "but it was denied"? Tim

[astjp2]

Re: For the Record

Tim stated that he had a field approval and other field approvals were shown, but it was denied. That's opinion, not fact.
John

I have 2 field approvals for F-19's, one for rib lacing and one for Marson rivets. You lost me at the, "but it was denied"? Tim

[Garry Crookham]

Re: For the Record

"but it was denied"? Tim

Tim
I think what John was pointing out that even though you had the field approval Hank continued to deny there was any legal way to use rib lacing. I'm amazed that with at least five experienced IA's agreeing in that thread that when properly done rib stitching is perfectly acceptable on stamped ribs someone without any real world experience would continue to object.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: For the Record

Good open debate is how we get to the best possible answer. I do not and have not felt I was being attacked any time in the whole conversation. I have a whole lot of respect for both John and Tim, as well as all the rest of the Tribe (which is why I read their opinions). I wasn’t really sure who the “attack” comment was supposed to be aimed at and thought it might have been me. As with what John said, if anyone saw it that way, I am sorry, and it wasn’t intended that way. None of us should EVER be afraid to point out where we think something could be unsafe here.

I NEVER want to lose another friend from this group. I have never really gotten over losing Josh and probably never will. There have been others from my aviation group friends, one of whom I knew from back in the 70s when we served together in the Navy. You can’t really ever get over that kind of loss.

I really DO NOT think that the post war stamped ribs can’t be rib stitched (sorry for the double negative, I am saying they CAN be stitched), but I DO (from this discussion) think the 43.13 doesn’t go into enough detail to keep me from worrying about it. I am not saying, now, that it is illegal, but that it could be unsafe the way I have read it if not done correctly. I think we are on the right track with the taping of the ribs before covering. What we need is a bit more detail since it is not the top and bottom part of the rib in contact with the fabric, but the sharp edge of the rib where it bends back down from where the wire holes are. What we need to do is insure it is clear that the tapes should wrap around the open edge of the ribs to keep the stitches from rubbing on the metal BEFORE the fabric is put on. I do not see that as violating any existing instructions like the 43.13, but I DO think it goes further than the 43.13 calls for. That is what I mean by being comfortable on a home built. I WOULD wrap fabric tape around the edges and glue it in place prior to putting the fabric on, or bend the sharp edge of the rib under so it didn’t touch the cords (which would be modifying the part from factory configuration), then put tape over the ribs on top of the fabric, stitch and cover with a final tape. I am looking, but I don’t see the 43.13 requiring three tapes per rib, only two.

What I would really like to do some day is work WITH some of the guys with more hands on experience on our planes like you guys (my only experience with fabric covering was working with a professional antique restorer on numerous planes like Howards, Cubs, Champs etc and my own three Taylorcrafts. I did help cover a C-118 tail while working for the Navy since none of the A-6 or F-14 mechanics knew anything about fabric). We had a saying on the A-6 program that the most dangerous thing on the hangar floor was one of the engineers with a screw driver. I always took that seriously. We are NOT A&Ps or IAs so we see things differently, especially where instructions are concerned. It was my job to always TRY to read every instruction WRONG so we could find traps in them that the new, less experienced mechanic could fall in to. Our jobs were to fall into the traps first before someone got hurt. I think the 43.13 instructions could be one of those traps because I think someone ‘could” fail to tape the sharp edge.

I know John and I want this whole thing to be done (done RIGHT) so I am asking just a tad more indulgence. I found a copy of the 43.13 on line ( https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...-1B_w-chg1.pdf since my paper copy is in the hangar and I was going by memory before). The covering portion in question is in chapter 2 section 8. I couldn’t see anywhere that it requires covering the metal of the ribs with tape prior to covering. Could someone let us all know where the actual rib taping part is that shows this and maybe post it so we all understand how it should be done CORRECTLY.

If it isn’t in the 43.13 I would suggest we create a more clear instruction for our aircraft, IN ADDITION TO the requirements of the 43.13, to keep the kind of cut cords I saw from happening to any of the Tribe. At least then all of us would know exactly how it should be done with no more worrying by any of us (me). The first diagram I found was Figure 2-3 showing a wood rib, the copy I am using shows no metal ribs (which is kind of strange to me) and it shows no tape over the rib before the fabric. I am thinking experienced A&Ps and IAs would probably tape the sharp edges as a matter of good practices, but I don’t see where someone doing their first wing would know that since it isn’t shown in the manual. I never got to do the initial part of the covering process when I was working with Custom Antique Aircraft. The owner had me doing the more menial parts while I was learning (read that LOTS of sanding, he was a hard core Cotton and Dope man). I don't blame him, unfortunately he retired long before I could add an A&P to my degree (something I think all aero engineers should do, but I am in a TINY minority in that opinion). Most engineers don't seem to want to get their hands dirty

I still consider us all the best kind of friends and hope there are no hard feelings. There aren’t on my side.

Hank

[astjp2]

Re: For the Record

Since everyone seems to be done venting and voicing their view, is it ok to close this post now and get back to something new?? I know I am ready to move on. Tim