Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

[Jim Herpst]

Tribe,

I am considering a project that has been modified in the Cargo area to the Gilberti/Harer STC (spelling off I believe) (STC also comes with the plane) The wings have new spars and the oversized bushings were installed. What else should I be looking for?

This one has wood doors which I assume original . I know doors were in different forms... I have verified it is a 41 BC-12 Fuselage . It does have the BC 12D (stamped Rib wings including ( unfortunately) the later hardware

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

One thing you need to be aware of is the 41 still used the 1010 steel fuselage while the post war planes had 4130 steel. As far as I know the FAA never quite understood the difference between the steel used before and after the war. Nothing that is in the STC will hurt the 41, but the strength of the fuselage is NOT the same for pre and post war planes. 1010 steel will bend more easily while 4130 is stronger and will tend to break at the welds. Different failure modes and load carrying abilities. If you don't plan to do acrobatics there is nothing wrong with using the STC mods to make the plane better, but it is NOT as strong as a post war with the mods. It WILL be stronger than a stock 41, which WAS already certified for mild acro.

As for the wings and doors, the 41 Deluxe had wood doors and also 15 rib wings. LOTS of pre war Taylorcrafts have stamped wings since repair of the early ribs was much more difficult. I have even seen wings with a mix of stick and stamped ribs. From an engineering perspective there is nothing wrong with that but you would have to live with MANY A&Ps and IAs raised eyebrows for the rest of your planes life. If you are planning to rebuild the wings I would go to either stick ribs or stamped ribs, not mixed, just so you don't spend every annual proving a mixed configuration is OK. One really nice thing about pre war wings is the welded aileron fittings instead of the cast ones. If you have ANY welded fittings, HANG ON TO THEM (unless you want to send them to me) ;-)

If the doors are wood then the door frames were made to fit them, not the other way around. You DO NOT want to try and replace the doors with tube or sheet doors! You "might" be able to do it, but it will take MUCH more work than it is worth. The wood doors are great and when repaired properly sound like a 1950s Buick door when they close. I used the actual door frame as a fixture to re-glue the door damage on mine. They are light, but strong and quiet in flight. If you buy her I can help with how to make them strong and stiff like I did mine (selective pieces of carbon fiber tape in the weak areas). I really wish there was a way to put wood doors on my other plane. I REALLY like them.

To get a little better handle on which type 41 you have, a photo of the instrument panel and its support structure will tell a lot as well as a photo in the tail of the area where the "flipper" trim attached (assuming you have a trim tab now, but you will want to know if the fuselage originally had the flipper. Also, do the tail surfaces have 2 or 3 hinges? That will tell if the tail is pre or post war. Also get a photo of the nose bowl to see if you still have the original.

If you DO have a real 41, we 41 owners kind of like to stick together. The minor differences between our planes and the "normal" Taylorcrafts are easy to accommodate, if you know what they are and the 41 Deluxe was the Queen of the Taylorcraft line. It has the best combination of features for making a great plane for the HP used.

Hank (and yes, I am a bit biased for the 41....and I have a 40, a 41 and a 45)

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

One thing you need to be aware of is the 41 still used the 1010 steel fuselage while the post war planes had 4130 steel. As far as I know the FAA never quite understood the difference between the steel used before and after the war. Nothing that is in the STC will hurt the 41, but the strength of the fuselage is NOT the same for pre and post war planes. 1010 steel will bend more easily while 4130 is stronger and will tend to break at the welds. Different failure modes and load carrying abilities. If you don't plan to do acrobatics there is nothing wrong with using the STC mods to make the plane better, but it is NOT as strong as a post war with the mods. It WILL be stronger than a stock 41, which WAS already certified for mild acro.

As for the wings and doors, the 41 Deluxe had wood doors and also 15 rib wings. LOTS of pre war Taylorcrafts have stamped wings since repair of the early ribs was much more difficult. I have even seen wings with a mix of stick and stamped ribs. From an engineering perspective there is nothing wrong with that but you would have to live with MANY A&Ps and IAs raised eyebrows for the rest of your planes life. If you are planning to rebuild the wings I would go to either stick ribs or stamped ribs, not mixed, just so you don't spend every annual proving a mixed configuration is OK. One really nice thing about pre war wings is the welded aileron fittings instead of the cast ones. If you have ANY welded fittings, HANG ON TO THEM (unless you want to send them to me) ;-)

If the doors are wood then the door frames were made to fit them, not the other way around. You DO NOT want to try and replace the doors with tube or sheet doors! You "might" be able to do it, but it will take MUCH more work than it is worth. The wood doors are great and when repaired properly sound like a 1950s Buick door when they close. I used the actual door frame as a fixture to re-glue the door damage on mine. They are light, but strong and quiet in flight. If you buy her I can help with how to make them strong and stiff like I did mine (selective pieces of carbon fiber tape in the weak areas). I really wish there was a way to put wood doors on my other plane. I REALLY like them.

To get a little better handle on which type 41 you have, a photo of the instrument panel and its support structure will tell a lot as well as a photo in the tail of the area where the "flipper" trim attached (assuming you have a trim tab now, but you will want to know if the fuselage originally had the flipper. Also, do the tail surfaces have 2 or 3 hinges? That will tell if the tail is pre or post war. Also get a photo of the nose bowl to see if you still have the original.

If you DO have a real 41, we 41 owners kind of like to stick together. The minor differences between our planes and the "normal" Taylorcrafts are easy to accommodate, if you know what they are and the 41 Deluxe was the Queen of the Taylorcraft line. It has the best combination of features for making a great plane for the HP used.

Hank (and yes, I am a bit biased for the 41....and I have a 40, a 41 and a 45)

Hank Yes the wing ribs are all stamped and yes the tail surfaces are all three hinge. The plane also has a STC for full skylights (Like the last F-22 Series) I thought the planes BEFORE 41 were the only planes using the mild Steel tubing. Hmm Do remember Dwayne Coles Clip Wing was a 38 0r 39 I believe..They were strong I believe. Still not about to rip into ACRO without serious thought on the age now anyway. (Me and the plane)!!

I AM also biased for the 41 as it gives one as you say the best of both worlds...(a bit lighter and still the wider cabin-not much but every inch counts!)

I am trying to figure whether to leave the large baggage area and go with a simple 85 while getting approval for a starter only and NO F-19 STC. OR go back to the little D windows and put in the sling and eliminate the skylight in the rear it was approved for the HUGE one like in the last of the series..would need to get the STC for the single overhead skylight in that case.......

[NC36061]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

That STC also requires reinforcing plates welded on the spar-strut fittings and larger fuel line. The GW can be kept at 1280 if you don't keep the extended baggage, otherwise a longer engine mount is required as well. Depending on how many original Deluxe features remain with it, I'd be inclined to make it look original, they are very uncommon. Check with Terry Bowden, who now has the STC, to confirm the above.

[astjp2]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

Its not a conversion to the F-19, its the Model 19, which was built before the Farris's owned Taylorcraft. I have the fuel valve available as an owner produced parts, that way you don't need to mess with the fuel system too much. the C-85 requires the STC weather it has electrical or not. The 85 is also limited on prop's compared to the c90 and o-200, I prefer longer propellers for climb and the 74" McCauley 65 props are legal on the 90/200 in the sea plane configuration and can be DER approved for land plane. I also like the big baggage, but I put in sleeping bags and my light weight tent...which takes up a lot of room. Good Luck. Tim

[PA1195]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

The STC comes with lots of paperwork and drawings. If some are missing then they are available from the current STC holder http://dc65stc.blogspot.com/p/stcs_06.html.

Gary

[Robert Lees]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

When Gilberti originally made the STC, in the 50's I think(?), there was a lot of extraneous rubbish included, like the brackets that go around the control wires to the rear fuselage (what do they do?); the fuel gauge on the header tank; the change of fuel pipe diameter between the wing tanks and header, etc.

I don't know the engineering reason for these "less-than-useful" additions, but it was possibly because that was what the Model 19 had.

I guess in FAA-land you have to fit these parts of the STC to comply.

Here in the UK I don't have anything other than the structural changes (steelwork+bushings) and my Taylorcraft hasn't run out of fuel or suffered vapour lock or fallen from the skies yet.

Rob

[PA1195]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

This http://dc65stc.blogspot.com/2010/05/...c-sa1-210.html further explains some of the reasoning behind STC SA1-210 and options for implementation. It also offers a source of documentation if missing from the current owner's records.

Gary

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

If I remember right you must put in ALL of an STC, or none of it. Some of the things the FAA requires don't necessarily make sense. A lot of things, like adding the doublers in the wing attach area get done even without the STCs. Try finding a local IA who would even know. You should at least make sure that the later wings are shown in the logs. On my 41 I didn't even consider the larger baggage sling. It is weight behind the CG and with two 200# people I can't even hold full fuel now. I also do NOT like the huge sky light. The cockpit gets too hot in summer and there is really no improvement in visibility over the smaller one (even the two small triangles on the 45 Deluxe). Your face is so close to the glass when you look up you really do NOT need a huge window to see well. It was a shame they didn't put the two triangles from 45 on more planes, but I was told building them was more labor intensive.

The 3 hinge tail surfaces indicate your tail is still pre-war. Does the Pilots side have a tab or do you have flippers? That should tell you if it was a Deluxe. The 41 Deluxe was the prototype for the tabs. Did you get a chance to look at the instrument panel? Does it have the shock mount for the instruments with a insert metal cover or is the panel one piece?

Can't wait to see some photos!

Hank

[astjp2]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

Hank, you can do a major alteration to the STC by not doing some of the provisions...like gross weight, short mount, etc.

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

If I remember right you must put in ALL of an STC, or none of it. Some of the things the FAA requires don't necessarily make sense. A lot of things, like adding the doublers in the wing attach area get done even without the STCs. Try finding a local IA who would even know. You should at least make sure that the later wings are shown in the logs. On my 41 I didn't even consider the larger baggage sling. It is weight behind the CG and with two 200# people I can't even hold full fuel now. I also do NOT like the huge sky light. The cockpit gets too hot in summer and there is really no improvement in visibility over the smaller one (even the two small triangles on the 45 Deluxe). Your face is so close to the glass when you look up you really do NOT need a huge window to see well. It was a shame they didn't put the two triangles from 45 on more planes, but I was told building them was more labor intensive.

The 3 hinge tail surfaces indicate your tail is still pre-war. Does the Pilots side have a tab or do you have flippers? That should tell you if it was a Deluxe. The 41 Deluxe was the prototype for the tabs. Did you get a chance to look at the instrument panel? Does it have the shock mount for the instruments with a insert metal cover or is the panel one piece?

Can't wait to see some photos!

Hank

Hank, It has the Shock Mount Panel. The Trim is a question I will need to get answered. On the one hand it SHOULD be a Deluxe with the wooden doors...(by the way what is the latching mechanism like?) I know on the tube and Fabric door units it is a simple tab that folds down against the tubing to close the door in place. I thought all 41 s had the built in Trim. My bet is the later wings are not in the logs as they were added while it was still in its current project stage. Sounds like it will be better to take it back to a bare bones 65 HP Ship. I discovered also he has only one wing tank installed. I realize a second could be added.... or is allowed to have the second wing tank on a 41?

ALL HERE THANK YOU MUCH for your guidance. Some I do already know but nice to re confirm. I have been away from the brand for a while and forgot a bit I realize! Also Hank Living in South Carolina it is NO FUN to have the sun beating on you most anytime of the year....

[PA1195]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

Here's a summary from the STC holder's link above regarding partial compliance: https://app.box.com/s/344y96l9s9

Gary

[NC36061]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

The latches on the wood Deluxe doors are similar to automotive type with a bolt engaging a strike plate on the wood door frame. I think the outer handles were Ford Model A units, it may be the whole assembly was off the shelf from Ford or another maker. Only the Deluxe had elevator trim, the non-Deluxe '41s kept the flipper trim. I believe two wing tanks was standard on the Deluxes. If its registered/data plated as a BC12-65, its a Deluxe, but may in reality be a mix of lots of parts of who knows what.

Edit - just looked at my 1941 sales brochure, Deluxe had one wing tank standard, two optional.

[astjp2]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

My tube doors have a screen door latch with a brass striker...and I only had 1 wing tank for a BC12-65

[3Dreaming]

Re: Considering Purchase Of A project 41 modified to F 19

The latches on the wood Deluxe doors are similar to automotive type with a bolt engaging a strike plate on the wood door frame. I think the outer handles were Ford Model A units, it may be the whole assembly was off the shelf from Ford or another maker. Only the Deluxe had elevator trim, the non-Deluxe '41s kept the flipper trim. I believe two wing tanks was standard on the Deluxes. If its registered/data plated as a BC12-65, its a Deluxe, but may in reality be a mix of lots of parts of who knows what.

All of the Deluxe that I have seen used a Dexter screen door latch, including inside and outside handles. The 41 Deluxe airplanes only had 1 wing tank originally.