Glue and brake linings

[N96337]

Re: Glue and brake linings

Rob, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that when there's rivet holes in a wheel, chances are they weren't meant to be glued! This is the very type of thing that makes us IA's a bit tough to get along with at times! Just go get the rivets, learn to do them (not a big deal..I'm sure any of us can learn to!) and do it right! Even as an IA, I will play hell trying to get ANY modification to the landing gear (especially a substitute brake lining attachment) approved.... and for a good reason. This isn't rocket science people, but the rivets have worked since the 40's, and worked quite well! Don't try to reinvent the whole deal....if you insist on doing so, go experimental and save the regulated mechanics a whole bunch of heartache and trouble! Chances are you wont ever have a problem, but if you do.... we'll be in trouble with you...the difference being that WE (the licensed mechanic and IA) are depending on that license to make a living!!! If it gets pulled for 30 or 90 days, that puts a helluva cramp in our livelihood........think about it! I once did an annual on a plane, and a few weeks later drove by the guy's hangar and he had the cowl off the plane and was messing with it... when I stopped to see if anything was wrong, he was trying to put a mag back together...he'd wanted to see what it had inside it! I asked him for his logbooks, and when he gave them to me, I promptly cut the page out that had my annual inspection entry....told him he was out of annual and let my local PMI know. The owner was furious, but I was safe...and guess what...a few months later, he had an engine problem (imagine that)....I had saved my butt by my actions, but the next guy that had signed off an annual was on the hook. THAT'S the part that the owners never seem to think about when doing this sort of thing.
I never understand why that's so hard for people to understand......just do it the way it's SUPPOSED to be done, until you can get an approval to do it differently....maybe someone knows a bit more about why you shouldn't be doing it the way you think you'd like to!
John

[M Towsley]

Re: Glue and brake linings

Ah, yes. Alaska...the last frontier. Also the only place where the Feds think 50% compliance on having a pilot's license is accomplishing something. Your post says a lot.

A little story I personally know is true. A transiting pilot in a new light sport aircraft landed with a tire problem. Two local A&P's change the tire out with same size and type of tire. The pilot leaves and later in his trip lands and has the pleasure of a ramp check. The very thorough FAA inspector happened to notice the tire discrepancy, (not the same brand as the manufacturer requires), and finds that particular light sport aircraft can only have one certain brand of tire. (The manufacturer has since changed this so this sort of thing won't happen again). I know of two A&P's and a pilot who were not happy with the outcome of this, which could be perceived as a minor issue by most people.

This is what we in the lower 48 get to deal with at times. I have no problem about forgetting about the Feds and insurance and flying the plane. Then again, I try to stay within the prescribed boundaries to lessen the hassle. Don't worry, someday these fun and games will come to an airport near you.

[N5002M]

Re: Glue and brake linings

Have any of you ever filed an actual claim with AVEMCO or any aviation insurance company? I have!!!....they didn't even ask me for my log books. An adjuster came out, looked everything over and got my estimates (which being an A&P, I bid the work myself). One week later I got a check for $27,000. The plane was in the air a month later. My insurance went up $100 a year (whoopdy-do)!! The Feds..LOL...made me come in to the FSDO so they could lecture me about picking suitable landing area's (I had picked a soft sand bar and nosed her up.) They taught me to pick "a little less-crappie" places to land.

Quit worrying about the Feds and insurance companies and go fly the plane!!!!

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: Glue and brake linings

Tribe,

Mike's Rivet tool looks good however you still have to drill and countersink the rivets. Which drill bit is used to do this job.

Frank D
N43684

[magman]

Re: Glue and brake linings

My comment on non-compliance was not Taylorcraft specific.

Incorrect Spark Plugs, mags & even engines may be found on some aircraft.

Repairs that are not i/a/w the mfg data or AC 43.13 may preovide the Insurance Co. with a back door.

If you want to develop your own methods of repairs there are ways to do it.

AC ?? pertains to Vintage Aircraft

Experimental Certification

[M Towsley]

Re: Glue and brake linings

Hank,

It almost sounds like you were an experiment for what I am used to dealing with, which was case law. Once something was proved, or disproved, one could use that for future cases. Unless, of course, something else came along and changed that particular case law.

[astjp2]

Re: Glue and brake linings

Well if an owner modified an aircraft, and the a&p misses the change, then the IA misses the change, who's A$$ is on the line if it gets found on a ramp or during an accident investigation? I am getting sued because an owner allegedly used autogas in an aircraft 6 months before the crash and subsequently quit using the gas 6 month prior to the accident. All I signed off was some pushrod seals but the FAA crash investigator was a friend of the pilots family and it seems to cloud the bias of the investigator. I have no problems if your IA wants to work with you but if you do it behind his or her's back, it becomes an ethics issue. nuff said

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Glue and brake linings

Bob, you should know by now that there is NO common sense in FAA regulations! If there is a parts diagram that shows rivets, there is an FAA inspector who will cite you for using adhesive. Legal is what the inspector says it is. It is REGULATORY not LAW and in the US you can't argue against regulations (not successfully anyway).
We aren't over-enthusiastic about legalities, we are just terrified of what the enforcers can do to us.
I couldn't fly for over a year because a flight surgeon decided to see if he could get the FAA to change the regulations on color blindness. I DID NOT WANT a waiver. I stated I didn't want it. I am perfectly HAPPY being required to have a radio and I don't want to fly at night anyway. He said he wanted to ask for the waiver to "see what will happen" and they pulled my medical for A FULL YEAR while they considered it. No matter who I called and told I didn't want the waiver, and no matter who I complained to about the flight surgeon, NO ONE could force him to withdraw the request I PUT IN WRITING I DIDN'T WANT.
This was a NASA flight surgeon that I was required to see for my job and he cost me a year without flying. I do not trust people with no responsibility for what they do. I wouldn't go back in that QUACKS office again at the point of a gun. Because of all the problems I caused HIM he demanded I surrender to him for a Scafoidectomy! That was the procedure used before the colonoscopy was accepted and isn't even USED any more. Think I am kidding? I am DEAD SERIOUS. I went to my Dr. who supported my refusal to submit. I ended up in NASA legal where someone finally saw what this JERK was doing.
I still had to wait for the FAA to fully process the request I knew they wouldn't grant anyway. A year lost because of a bureaucrat operating under regulations and insulated from law. Yes. I am afraid of regulations.
Hank

[Mark Julicher]

Re: Glue and brake linings

The deluxe riveting tool is the way to go. Rivet squeezer is OK too. The hammer-type rivet tool can lead to cracked wheels and lots of foul words.

An A&P is liable for work performed until someone else re-repairs that particular part. In other words, your A&P and IA are on the hook indefinitely. I do know an A&P in currently in the hoosegow courtesy of the FAA.

[cvavon]

Re: Glue and brake linings

THANK YOU ROBERT my thoughts exactly most A/P s would think you were talking about your foot and send you to a Orthepedic surgeon instead of brakes

[Robert Lees]

Re: Glue and brake linings

Some insurance companies hire A & P's to check for non-compliance.

That's interesting. Non-compliance to what? May I ask upon what basis this applies to aircraft like the Taylorcraft where detailed design data is 70 years old and hard to get hold of?

May I also ask which A&P that you know would have access to the detailed design drawings of the Shinn brake lining assembly, as applicable to the Taylorcraft, to definitively argue in court what is legal?

My questions are genuine, because I think that some of you US folks are too over-enthusiastic about legalities to the point of them overcoming common sense.

[magman]

Re: Glue and brake linings

Some insurance companies hire A & P's to check for non-compliance.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Glue and brake linings

If you are going to stay legal in the U.S. you have to use rivets (unless you want to do the paperwork to get authorization for an alternate compliance method, if you DO please share it). That said, with the current state of the FAAs budget they are most likely not going to tear down your wheels and tires to check. That DOES NOT MAKE IT LEGAL. There are lots of things that we can (and probably should!) do to our planes to make them safer. Some of us do it. But you really don't want to draw attention to unauthorized mods if you ever have an accident. The insurance company is another subject. They are fully justified in denying payment if you aren't in conformance.
I am pretty ham fisted with rivets and I riveted mine (with an A&P watching me). It was NOT that hard. I think I only screwed up one rivet and it was drilled out and redone with no problem. It is a LOT easier with a rivet squeezer.
Hank

[magman]

Re: Glue and brake linings

The $5 extra for Deluxe can be well spent.

My choice is not to use a hammer ( All Purpose Tool?) while doing this.

The threaded screw on the Deluxe allows better control.

When using the Standard model I like to squeeze the tool in a vise.

[M Jones]

Re: Glue and brake linings

The rivet tool below works well. Check the link:

Brake Lining Rivet Tool

Aircraft Spruce has them, as well as others. (Wag list them as no longer available on their site) I modified it a little by grinding off as much from the corners as I could on my bench grinder. That let me put the new rivets on without having to remove the tires. Just deflate them a little and it gets right in there. It's really pretty simple.