Value of A65-8 trade

[Doc]

I just procurred an A65-8 (SN 30915) with TTE 1242 and TTSMOH 102. Engine was majored 06/13/1996 and was running on a Pietenpol as of last year. All accesories are with the engine. I have the original books (originally on a 1947 Cub). An fellow EAA'er has a late '45 or early '46 BC12-D (N43028) project with an uncertain A65-8 without logs and Eismann mags. What would the tribe consider a fair trade in terms of dollars? My assumption is that the other engine has only core value. Thanks. Doc

[Pearson]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

Doc,

I agree with you about the other engine only having a core value. Without tearing it open you really don't even know if it is a good core.

Your engine with all the accessories is obviously worth a lot more. My guess would be in the 5k to 7.5K range. The problem with getting a lot for it is that you have to find someone that really needs all the accessories. Most people have the accessories and just want a bare engine in good shape.

If the other fellow is offering to buy your engine and give you his old one as a core, AND he needs all the accessories, I would think something close to six grand PLUS his old engine would be a pretty fair trade. Some might even say SEVEN grand, plus his engine. Somewhere in that neighborhood would be fair to everyone, in MY humble opinion. Of course, this doesn't take into account any sort of relationship you may have, or favors done in the past, etc. I am sure you know what I mean.

I suspect you have discussed this with Mark. I am sure he has a pretty good idea of what a good trade would be. I always like to do deals like this so that both parties feel like they got a good value. If you can achieve that, it was a good deal. But I also tell everyone, it is better to walk away from ten good deals than to get burned by one bad one.

Maybe you could include some caveat with the deal that his core has to have a useable crank and rods, or something along those lines. You could also induce him to pay more by offering a 90 day warranty against excessive oil usage or low compression.

When I bought my airplane many years ago it had been sitting out of annual for several years. My concern was that the cylinders would be all rusted up and I would have low compression or high oil usage very soon after it started flying. I offered to buy the plane if the guy would give me a warranty against high oil consumption within the first 50 hours. He agreed, and I wrote up a little contract stating the terms. We both signed it, and I had a warm fuzzy when I bought my plane. This guy was an FAA repair station, so he had a business reputation to protect. If I were doing a similar contract with an individual, I would want something in it saying the loser pays the court costs if it comes to that.

[NY86]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

I just procurred an A65-8 (SN 30915) with TTE 1242 and TTSMOH 102. Engine was majored 06/13/1996 and was running on a Pietenpol as of last year.

Has it been maintained as a certificated engine, or as an experimental?

At 14 YSMO (years since major) I'd put it a little less than Pearson, but still a lot more than if it has been maintained as an Experimental.

[jim cooper]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

As maybe a guide: My salvage T-craft, the one the hangar collapsed on was just sold to a local T-craft owner by the insurance company for 6000.00. It included all logs since 1947, engine with 300 hours since major, all instruments, #10 interior including NICE headliner custom made, all side glass in very good cond. no wings as they were ruined, landing gear and #10 wheel pants incl. tires which are almost new (50 hrs.) and fuselage which is slightly sprung over right door but in perfect cond. other wise including all tailfeathers which are fine and a 3200 scott tailwheel which is fine. I THINK one wing fuel tank maybe done for but yet to know, the other is fine. I would think all rigging in the wings, especially the left is fine. Ailerons are untouched so are fine. If I were a rebuilder I would have jumped on it. It was totally rebuilt from 2006 to 2009. Hope this helps, JC

[mulwyk]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

$6000. Wow. I'd love to get a deal like that.

Sounds like Mr. "Local T-craft owner" somehow got a $2000+ discount on your $8000+ worth of project plane. The engine alone is worth more than $6000.

I want to buy my next project from your insurance company.

[Doc]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

The engine is complete as a certificated engine, although when it was on the Pietenpol the timing was modified to 28 degrees on the left mag and 31 degrees on the right mag. The Piet owner moved up to a C85...hence the A65 being available. This A65-8 is available for sale...as my plan was to use it as a spare engine for either the BC12-D or my currrent Aeronca 7AC project which has its own Cont A65 with good logs. Thanks for the input as it will help my fellow EAA'er make a decision based upon advice from others. Best. Doc PS: As the engine problem has "busted" his budget, he has been talking about selling his BC12-D.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

check out www.barberaircraft.com TAylorcraft stuff for sale. I still have the project ship with fresh chrome A-65 , all for $8500.00 or BO. Sold the other ship last Thursday.

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

A65 is not worth near what it cost to rebuild them. Running A65 $2500 give or take a few hundred. Overhauled A65 $5k -$6k. Cost to rebuild one? $8500 plus. It takes nearly the same money to rebuild an 85 or O-200, hence everyone upgrading.

I would value his core at $1000 if parts are within service limits and less if anything needs sent out.

[astjp2]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

I bought 3 core engines for $400.00 each, and a friend got one 0smoh for $700.00 from an estate. With the data available to put 85 cylinder on them, I may consider rebuilding them someday but it is doubtful. Tim

[swift1b]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

Doc:

Sorry for not responding sooner but could not open your email on the foundadtion website.

To answer your question about the recent A-65 major over haul I offer the following:

Aero Engines of winchester opened up the case due to a stuck cam follower.
The crank was orginal so I decided to let them have it reworked to 10 thousand undersize and install new main and rod bearings/seals and newer type cam followers. The cost to me was $2200.

I had the chrome cylinders overhauled by a repair shop in PA. The costs was around $2500. Aero Engines signed off on the bottom end and my A&P installed and signed off on the cylinders. My estimated cost: $5000.00 after throwing in costs for misc parts. Hope this helps...

bob

[mohawktipi]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

Go to http://barnstormers.com/ and check out the "asking" price for running A-65-8.

[Pearson]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

Reminds me of the old Fram oil filter commercial; "you can pay me now, or pay me later".

I went to Barnstormers. The prices were all over the place. One was only $1500. But it had one low cylinder. On the high end of the spectrum was one for $6500, fresh from the test stand. It just depends on how much peace of mind you want to have while you are flying.

I sold an A65 engine dissassembled for $5500 a few years ago. Each individual part had been yellow tagged. It had no mags, carb, oil sump, exhaust, or prop hub. Every part was there, it just needed to be assembled. The machine work plus all the new valves, rocker arms, rings, bearings, and gaskets, cost me a little over $4000. I gave the guy the actual receipt from the machine shop, along with the yellow tags. It had no logbook.

I am fully aware that you can open up one of these engines and replace the bearings and rings and call it an overhaul. But when I see an A65 advertised as 0 SMOH for less than 5 or 6 grand, I just chuckle. Yea, it was overhauled, sure. But I'm not going to fly behind it!

So back to the original question, what is it worth. Well how much are YOU worth! I don't know about you guys, but I think I am worth every penny of that $6500 engine.

[Doc]

Re: Value of A65-8 trade

Thanks to all for a great discussion. My fellow EEA'er finally decided to do the correct thing, which is to overhaul his own engine (original with the aircraft). Your input reassured him that his A&P was "on the money" on the repair/overhaul estimates. Doc