propping your t craft

[Pearson]

Re: propping your t craft

Bill,

One of the reasons I prefer the start from behind procedure is because I have something to hold onto which keeps me from a close encounter with the prop. I always hold onto the vertical post at the forward edge of the door opening. I use only my right hand to pull the prop through.

I am not saying that anyone who starts from in front of the plane is wrong. I used to do it that way myself. My thinking was that if I forgot to do something correctly and the plane began to move forward, I would prefer to be behind, instead of in front of the prop. I tried the behind the prop method and I liked it. Try it. You might like it too.

[n6346m]

Re: propping your t craft

Bill,
You should try that in a floatplane or on skis. The point is that people have been starting airplanes from behind and the front for a lot of years and should do whatever is comfortable and works for them. I doubt that you will find much factual accident data supporting either method. Since I rarely operate out of paved airports I am almost always starting on gravel, grass, snow, ice or a sandy beaches. Footing is not always great, that's why I prefer to start from behind. First, I like to have something to stabilize me like leaning my upper body on the boot cowl during the initial grab of the prop and during the winter I can stand on the top of my flat skis. I could reach the door post but for me the stretch is not in my comfort zone and I don't do it. Second, if the airplane for some reason due to a mechanical or operator failure suddenly lurches forward, I will not get hit by the prop if I loose my footing. The geometry of my Taylorcraft is such that if the airplane lurches forward the wing strut will hit me (I'm 5' 7", your but height may vary) in the upper thigh just below the but and I will probably go ass-over-teakettle and wind up behind the strut assembly and get run over by the tailwheel. No one has legs long enough to hit the prop during this maneuver.
I can tell by your posts that you have probably never tried starting from behind or if you did you were not comfortable doing it. Starting from behind definitely requires a different technique. From what I hear described, when starting from the front one uses his upper body in an arcing motion stepping away from the prop. When starting from behind, I stand firmly in one spot planting my feet and not moving them until the engine is started avoiding the possibility of losing my footing. Remembering the workplace adage of lifting with your legs and not your back, I put almost a straight arm out and use my knees and bring my whole body in an almost straight down motion motion to get through the compression stroke. No, there is no possibility of getting down on you knees, the travel is not nearly that far, it's more like a curtsy. Your feet never move and your body motion is not going toward the prop, it is going up and down. I learned this technique when I owned a Mooney Mite. Because of the tricycle gear and its diminutive stature it was way too low to the ground for me to safely start it from the front.
The bottom line is that I'm not saying that people should do it my way, I'm saying that people should do whatever they are comfortable with. Just because someone does it different than me, doesnt necessarily mean that it's wrong. I just prefer to be behind the prop rather than in front of it. There are always hazards in hand starting an engine, Henry put starters on the model-T because people got tired of breaking their arms.
If one is really paranoid they should get an airplane with a starter and start the engine from the comfort of the pilot's seat. That has its own problems however. During my 45 years of flying, I have found that the overwhelming majority of hand propping accidents happened to people with dead batteries and tried hand propping without a technique at all.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: propping your t craft

Thank you all. I do it both ways depending upon the situation, I kind of chuckled at Bill starting a Taylorcraft on floats from the front, perhaps he can walk on water. Love you Bill......
I have to start from behind at the moment as described by many. I will do it twice today. The quick release rope to a fixed object is used quite a bit around my airport, Pietenpohl, Aeronca Chief, Fleet 16B , etc.... The TAylorcraft because of the complete swing forward door makes it very simple, if doing it all the time, relocate the mag switch(s) to the far right side.

[high time cub]

Re: propping your t craft

Apologies, Bill..... just couldn't resist the show-biz juxtaposition- position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZSlgMTi4tw

[VictorBravo]

Re: propping your t craft

Apologies, Bill..... just couldn't resist the show-biz juxtaposition- position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZSlgMTi4tw

Any one of the Rockettes can come out dressed like that and help me start a Taylorcraft any day...

...but will I get kicked off this forum if I said I'd have to change my mind and try to start one of them from behind?

Speaking of showbiz nonsense, I attended a big EAA event the other day here in CA where Harrison Ford gave the chairmanship of the EAA Young Eagles program to the US Air Hudson River incident airline pilots. Fantastic event, first class all the way from the dinner tables, to the food, to the speakers, to even our own Governator making a smiling appearance. Ford had an absolutely magnificent Waco Taperwing on display in the hangar where this dinner was held... what a gorgeous airplane. My wife asked him if he flew it regularly, and he just smiled at her saying "It ain't no paperweight honey!"

300+ of California EAA chapter officers were simply blown away by this event. Ford, Tom Poberezny, Captain Sullenberger and FO Skiles, and the EAA people truly do give a s**t about aviation. The two airline pilots totally impressed us all with their commitment to use their newfound (and unwanted) celebrity to make a positive difference in aviation. Two humble guys with class and dignity... we were moved to tears. We all came away from it totally fired up to get more kids involved in aviation, and that programs like this and other similar ones could actually save general aviation. Tall order, but we all gotta step up and do it.

'Far as the hand prop deal goes,

Several people have pointed out that the method I use is limited to solid ground. That is certainly true in some cases (and despite what my dog thinks of me I cannot in fact walk on water... any more than what my wife thinks which is that I have Cotter Pins for brains). I'll let the experienced float pilots and ski-plane drivers take the lead on the water and snow issue since I have zero experience there. I wo uld think that a floatplane is the prime candidate for an electric starter upgrade... even that hillbilly Makita drill thing.

My understanding is that most of the known hand-prop accidents happen at an airport on solid ground... does anyone have a confirmation on that?

[Forrest Barber]

Re: propping your t craft

It sure happens on the water too! I am sure ground wins out.
WOW do I wish we could download your brain for a replay of the Young Eagle Event. THAT had to be a great moment for Harrison Ford and all the others around him . Yours is the first post I have read on that event.
ATTA BOY Bill!
I now have four Young Eagles doing Phase II, in my Taylorcraft . Over 100 Young Eagles flights so far for me . ours is EAA #82. Its a great life.
Off to bed, big day tomorrow.

[Robert Lees]

Re: propping your t craft

...
WOW do I wish we could download your brain for a replay of the Young Eagle Event...

Why? Are you short of cotter pins?

I always prop from behind. I'm happy with doing it that way, and for me is the safest way. Nothing wrong with swinging from the front either, I just feel more comfortable & safe doing it from the back.

A bit like the old "nosewheel-tailwheel" argument, I guess.

[VictorBravo]

Re: propping your t craft

WOW do I wish we could download your brain for a replay of the Young Eagle Event. THAT had to be a great moment for Harrison Ford and all the others around him . Yours is the first post I have read on that event.

(Off-Topic Warning... this post has ZERO to do with the original thread)

As silly as it sounds, one of the biggest things that impressed me was the way the event was set up, the bar service, foodservice, and details like that. This is because (as part of a previous life in a galaxy far far away) I have gone to hundreds of these awards dinners and tributes... after a while everything looks and tastes the same. Same awful asparagus tips, same awful institutional chicken Cordon Bleu, same ambience and "feeling" in the room, etc. The people who have to go to these types of events for business or civic functions call it the "rubber chicken circiut" because of the same rubbery standard foodservice chicken served.

But the attention to detail that (whoever) put into this one was really special. It was every bit as good or better than most of the artsy-fartsy events in Hollywood. Better, really, and mind you this was being put on in an airplane hangar with two airplanes sitting on display. The tables were like French country estate style family sized tables, enormously thick beautifully stained and oiled real wood .

Tom Poberezny actually introduced the chef, who spoke for a few minutes about the food, the organic farms where he went for the %(*#*% tomatoes, the quality of the Tri-Tip roasts, and on and on! Folks, trust me on this, I've been to just about every fancy type of dinner you can imagine and this one was a standout. I ain't never heard the chef come out to the podium and discuss the quality and choice of food for the evening... and it was justified because of the quality!

This had nothing to do with why we were there, but it showed some real class and top-shelf choices being made by EAA to make this a first class deal.

Poberezny introduced Arnold Schwarzenegger, who had flown in from Sacramento to appear at an environmental summit of some sort in LA... so when Arnold landed at Santa Monica and just moseyed over to make a five minute speech congratulating the Young Eagles ("Yong Eeeaaagles") program and Ford for being the chairman. He then got the folks cheering by making a big fuss over the US Air pilots, " you think I was an action hero in the movies... these guys are the real action heroes!". (just go ahead and shoot the speechwriter, Governor)

Two young pilots spoke, who had both been greatly influenced by the YE program and who had done their YE flight with Harrison Ford. One pilot had been an early kid in the program, and had gone on to get his license, move up through his ratings, and is now a captain at an airline... he looked like he was about 25 or 30 and he's left seat in a757 somewhere.

The other pilot had flown with Harrison Ford as well. She took lessons in the family Pacer afterward and soloed it. For her 15th or 16th birthday she asked for a pair of Ray-Ban aviators and her folks got her a Legend Cub LSA kit instead. So the girl built it (with help from Dad), covered it, put the 120 HP Jabiru engine on... then flew it to Oshkosh (student pilot approved for XC solo) with Dad and the Pacer in close formation. Now she's just getting her license and will be flying her first Young Eagles flight as PIC this week.

Not a dry eye in the house!

Harrison Ford spoke very eloquently, very softly, but with great passion and sincerity in his voice. 100% sincere, speaking as an aviator and a lover of airplanes, no trace of Hollywood BS in the least. (After the event, he stuck around and glad-handed all the local EAA people, I got the impression he was happy enough to hang around and be surrounded by pilots, where any normal celebrity worth his Bentley makes a well-timed exit before everyone else and gets the hell out of the event to go relax somewhere else)

Sullenberger and Skiles spoke enthusiastically as I mentioned before.

Poberezny was humble and gracious and classy throughout, although he needs to spend a little more time learning the nuances of public speaking and "oration". if hw is going to be in the leadership position he is in. Not that Tom was afraid to speak or ineffectual as a speaker in any way, but that all the other speakers were so good and smooth which simply created a contrast.

Forgive the ranting and lurid description, but it seemed that some people wanted to hear more detail on this event. It was a great event because good old normal airport/airplane people, the rank and file EAA types, got an event that was exceptionally well done and had all the class of a private entertainment industry or high-level business dinner... complete with celebrity sightings and political dignitaries... and got to celebrate doing something really worthwhile in aviation.

I even got to sit across from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty owners Jim Irwin and his lovely wife Nanci, who will now be carrying my flap handle extension gizmo!

Oh well... back to arguing about hand-propping and Cotter pins rattling around in my head.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: propping your t craft

Again, thank u Bill! I will copy your description and present to my EAA Chapter at the next meeting. It has made a rainy , gray , overcast day in Ohio a lot brighter....

[Larry Lyons]

Re: propping your t craft

Bill you know me as a crusty old curmudgeon when it comes to people putting on airs and I do not particularly like Tom P. (dislike is closer) but in this case I think he was just out gunned. Both Harrison and "The Guv. are both accomplished actors and make a living playing to the audience. I just received my Young Eagles email where they talk about the event but your description is worth about 40 of theirs.
Thank you, Larry Lyons

PS: The Sport Pilot mag has died and none too soon either! EAA made the mistake of asking me three different times about what I thought about the direction the EAA was taking. They got an earful each time. One of those times the asker was the current VP and director of the Museum, another time I was at a meeting of Chap. officers, and once was by random email.

[Len Petterson]

Re: propping your t craft

Not a Young Eagle but a mature, young in hard new friend what toke one look at my Taylorcraft, maybe not in show condition: You fly what? Handpropping? yes. When are we going up? Unforgently it was to late in the evening to fly but we talked flying around the dinner table. His new wife also likes the idea of flying.
Someone in Florida, they are "snowbird" you know, will teach him to fly this winter, maybe not in taidragger without starter,but Steve (;f
will have fun and carry on a pilots banner.
Len

[Len Petterson]

Re: propping your t craft

It was mention the accident rate during hand proping, could be higher on paved runways an/or hard sufces.
stand reson the plane moves a LOT EASYER!
NO CHOCKS NO TIEDOWN (for the tail) AVELABLE. IT IS SETUP FOR A ACCIDENT.
If you when are inexperiensed with the procidure, and the engine is biggger in size! Oh Boy
We should be our brothers kepper, and help him or teach him, you may save a life.
Len

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: propping your t craft

One of the biggest contributors to accidents is overconfidence. Table saw accidents are higher on saws WITH blade guards! The blade guard causes people to think they are "safe" because there is a guard protecting them. Many professional carpenters remove the guard because the spinning blade in plain sight makes them be more careful.
Standing on loose ground, snow or ice makes you VERY alert when you are propping a plane. When the day is perfect, you are on solid footing, the plane has been working great lately (start first pull every time) you are PRIME FOR AN ACCIDENT!
The prop doesn't care if you had a good day, it doesn't care if you have good footing, it doesn't care because IT'S A PROP! It will kill you without a thought, because IT DOESN'T THINK. There is no malice, just torque and kinetic energy waiting to bite you. Treat EVERY start like everything will go wrong, whatever technique you use.
Hank

[VictorBravo]

Re: propping your t craft

(Off-Topic Warning... this post has ZERO to do with the original thread)

As silly as it sounds, one of the biggest things that impressed me was the way the event was set up, the bar service,.

Here is some footage from the EAA event that I mentioned:

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184434145?bclid=1184431670&bctid=42876604001