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  • recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

    My trusty Tcraft got hailed upon. Several holes in the wing, a few in the tail feathers. Lots of bullseyes letting sunlight through every inch or so all over the top surfaces. I ran it into the shop, sanded through the Urathane topcoat around the holes, and patched. The plane is flying again with several big silver blotches on the wing and tail, but that is only temporary. There is a lot of sunlight getting to the Dacron.
    The insurance adjuster says that it will need a recover (typical quote ~$25000 from a shop). With $18K hull insurance, he says that if I want to keep the plane the insurance will give me $13000.
    Now a new set of materials for a Stits, Sorry, Poly Fiber recover will run about $3500.
    I have done some fabric work. I recovered the gear legs last year when the Struts were AD'ed. I had no trouble patching the holes from the hail (except wet-sanding through that %$#@ Urathane topcoat). I have participated in a full recover before and my EAA chapter has experience to lean on. Most important, I have a very good A&P who will oversee the work.
    So it looks like this winter, I will put a lot of sweat-equity into a recover of the plane.

    It is an April-1946 vintage BC12-D that has had the Gilbarti/Harrer STC applied to bring it to a BC12D-4-85. The bigger engine is nice as I am up in the mountains. Home field elevation is 7200 MSL. It has stamped ribs with wire clips rather than the older folded-T ribs. The engine is in good shape with a fresh top and runs very strong and nice. It has a .20-under crank and this will be its last overhaul. In several years (knock wood) it will get an O-200 crank and pistons, but that is not needed for this round. Full logs back to day One. Never on floats. New struts from up in Alaska last year in response to the AD. All the other work was done away from here before I acquired the plane. I bought it about 6 years ago.
    The last recover was in 1991. It was done with the Stits process with some sort of Urathane for a colour coat. The pattern is White with blue leading edges and the T-Craft stripe with diamond. The Urathane top coat is the big problem for repair. I need to wet-sand through the paint to apply patches or do repairs. All the folklore about "nice to look at, awful to repair" comes to roost now.

    My request is for words of wisdom and experience from all you guys. I expect that, while the plane is basically a nice sound bird, there is always a lot of little cruft that will come up once a recover is under way. I get a good chance to look at the tubing and all the fittings... I have only glanced at the spars through inspection holes... I would like to take the opportunity to upgrade a bit as I go. I figure, why not make the plane just a little bit better? It is flying (with the silver patches on the wings) So I can take my time and I can plan on this work over the winter.

    So, In no particular order, (More questions will come to mind, I am sure)

    Stits vs Ceconite?

    How reasonable is it to re-use the existing wire fabric clips? Should I be trying to find replacements? How well does the fabric-wire-clip scheme work as opposed to rib stitching? The clips are part of the TC, and I will use them, but as I have never used them before, I am curious about how well the work.

    What can I do to match original colours. It has a fairly original white/blue-stripe paint scheme. What should I look for for colours and patterns for a good original rebuild? I plan to cover in Stits Polytone, or maybe Dope. I have helped with a Ceconite process recover and could do either. Whatever I use, I intend to avoid the shiny Urathane/Automotive top coat. I want repairable. I do not have the urge to enter contests. This is a fun sport plane first and foremost although original vintage character is important.

    Where might I look to find a new upper cowl and lower boot cowl? These are the extended versions for the C-85-12. The uppers are hail dented and the lower has a few dents and repaired cracks.

    The plane is from the time when Taylorcraft was sliding down in 1946. The cowl uses the hardware-store trunk latches. There are no strut cuffs or tie-down rings. Where might I find a set of strut cuffs?

    Is it reasonable to add some of the BC-12 Deluxe bits like the chrome trim on the cowl? Other bits to make it a bit more deluxe?

    What other upgrades are nice? This is the time to consider STCs.

    Brakes! I have done a tear down and re-build of the Shinns and I am comfortable working on them, but they are a high-maintenance item. Are there alternatives while I have everything apart?

    Most important, what questions am I forgetting to ask???

    It's a nice plane. I have the opportunity to make it a bit nicer. As the next few months of planning run along, I will probably bother everyone with lots of questions. Thanks in advance for any ideas.

    Skip
    Skip Egdorf
    TF #895
    BC12D N34237 sn7700

  • #2
    Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

    Originally posted by skip View Post

    Stits vs Ceconite?

    How reasonable is it to re-use the existing wire fabric clips? Should I be trying to find replacements? How well does the fabric-wire-clip scheme work as opposed to rib stitching? The clips are part of the TC, and I will use them, but as I have never used them before, I am curious about how well the work.

    What can I do to match original colours. It has a fairly original white/blue-stripe paint scheme. What should I look for for colours and patterns for a good original rebuild? I plan to cover in Stits Polytone, or maybe Dope. I have helped with a Ceconite process recover and could do either. Whatever I use, I intend to avoid the shiny Urathane/Automotive top coat. I want repairable. I do not have the urge to enter contests. This is a fun sport plane first and foremost although original vintage character is important.

    Where might I look to find a new upper cowl and lower boot cowl? These are the extended versions for the C-85-12. The uppers are hail dented and the lower has a few dents and repaired cracks.

    The plane is from the time when Taylorcraft was sliding down in 1946. The cowl uses the hardware-store trunk latches. There are no strut cuffs or tie-down rings. Where might I find a set of strut cuffs?

    Is it reasonable to add some of the BC-12 Deluxe bits like the chrome trim on the cowl? Other bits to make it a bit more deluxe?

    What other upgrades are nice? This is the time to consider STCs.

    Brakes! I have done a tear down and re-build of the Shinns and I am comfortable working on them, but they are a high-maintenance item. Are there alternatives while I have everything apart?

    Most important, what questions am I forgetting to ask???

    It's a nice plane. I have the opportunity to make it a bit nicer. As the next few months of planning run along, I will probably bother everyone with lots of questions. Thanks in advance for any ideas.

    Skip

    1. Basically the same, both owned by Consolidated now. Ceconite is laquer/butyrate system, stits is all butyrate system with option of urethane top coat. Stits is not quite as easy to repair with urethane top coat. Bad thing about poly-tone, it will fade and has no uv protection. Ceconite will gloss out nicer than polytone most the time. Since it sits outside I would strongly condsider Air Tech. It is solid urethane system, super easy to repair, easy to maintain, does not lose its elasticity as stits and ceconite will over time. It is more expensive but requires less time to apply.

    2. If you do go stits, call jim and dondi miller of Aircraft Techinical Support. They are the nicest people to deal with and should be able to customs match if you provide sample. Air Tech will also custom match with sample. You will have to do your own mixing for perfect match with dope

    3. Upper cowls you can make, they are flat wrap, bottom you will probably have to repair

    4. you can make the cuffs, no one cuff will fit due to all the different strut dimensions used over the years. they are flat wrap as well

    5. forget finding deluxe trim, even the 41 guys can't find enough pieces to make a full set

    6. shoulder harnesses

    7. no other approved brakes available

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

      Here is a link to Air Tech Coatings, if you want to check them out. I have it on my plane and I like it.
      Richard Pearson
      N43381
      Fort Worth, Texas

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

        I'll second several things Mike (Ragwing) said.
        FORGET the chrome trim, first it is stainless, not chrome, second it won't fit your nose bowl (different opening shape), third those of us with 41 can't find a set for the plane it is supposed to go on, and last the pieces are too short for your cowl. If you DO come across a set, let the group know. There will be a friendly food fight from the 41 crowd.
        Next is a WHOLEHEARTED endorsement of Jim and Dondi. You will NEVER find a more supportive couple. They are solid gold and great to work with. They will also custom mix dope if you want that nice satin shine that was originally on your plane and nothing is easier to repair than dope. A real blast to work with (literally with the clear nitrate filler if you have any open flames around, BE CAREFUL!, with ALL the paints!).
        Next, the wire clips are really nice to work with too. Easy to use and the correct way to do it and stay original and legal. If you are careful removing them you can probably reuse them. DON'T pull them out of the holes! You will tear out an edge of each hole and really mess up the ribs. They have to be pushed forward (or aft, I always have to look at the drawing) to release the hook in the wire and they will pop right out. There are two spacings for the hooks out there and one will NOT fit on a Taylorcraft. If you have to replace some of the wires (and you will) get the right size wire.
        As you look at the airframe you will probably find some bits of the original paint in the little corners. Try and figure out the original colors and some of us will probably have samples large enough for Jim and Dondi to get you what you need. They have Maroon, Taylorcraft Ivory and the metallic Blue for sure, probably many more are already in stock. Watch out for anyone selling who claims to know what the original colors looked like. Many of us have done DETAILED research to find the real colors. DIANA CREAM IS NOT TAYLORCRAFT IVORY!
        Strut cuffs have to be custom made but I have patterns for several size struts you can start with. Save that one for this winter. You don't need them to fly and you will be making lots of cardboard ones to get them to fit your struts. Around new years I get all the old desk calendars in my office for the cardboard. Perfect for making patterns!
        The brakes that came with your plane are perfect for it. If you put big strong brakes on a Taylorcraft, plan on doing the "inverted roll-out" on landing. You only need enough brakes to hold you for a run-up. More is asking for trouble. The originals can be worked to do that just fine. There are a few tricks to a proper setup, but the group can help you with that. DON'T put larger cables on the brakes and DO make sure the pulleys are in good shape and lined up before recover. If you want upgrades, think about right hand brakes (with a lock our so a Young Eagle doesn't put you in the weeds). Mike can help you setting up paperwork for that one (in fact, Mike can answer a LOT of questions. He is becoming a Taylorcraft expert.
        Lastly and the most important question for you is ASK QUESTIONS (one at a time is easiest). This group seems to take as much pride in someone Else's restoration as they do in their own. We have lots of resources and are always willing to share. There isn't much that could ever go wrong with a Taylorcraft that one of us hasn't already fixed. If you find someone close, get with them. It's nice to get with a fellow fan.
        Hank

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

          I guess I'm more conservative than most...my answers:

          Use Stits poly-fiber. A Great system, easy to use, proven over many, many years, the very best support.

          Stay healthy and make your plane easy to repair: Don't use urethane, use polytone top coats. It's an antique airplane, it's not supposed to be shiney.

          And Please don't use custom colors unless you're sure you'll own the plane forever. The next owner will thank you if you just use stock colors.

          Stick with the original brakes.
          Bob Gustafson
          NC43913
          TF#565

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

            T-Rex has Air Tech on it also. The covering and paint were 9 years old, mostly outside I think. It was hailed on, no holes in the fabric but there were hundreds of ringworm dings all over the entire plane. Then I purchased the plane and flew it until it was out of annual. That winter I spent 250 to 300 hours sanding through the polyurethane paint so I could sand the dings down to the primer and as close to the fabric as possible. Dont ask how many holes I put in the fabric. Then reprimed all of the dings (the entire plane) and sanded everything again to smooth it all out. And then repainted all of the top and side surfaces of the whole plane. I spent about 2000.00 on Air Tech paint and supplies. Hind sight beeing 20/20 should have recoverd with stits or ceconite because T-Rex got hailed on again and I have over 90 dings on the wings. Any fabric process that is finished with a polyurithane paint is prone to cracking if not right away definately over time and there is no way to rejouvinaet it. But man do they shine.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

              Here's T-Rex in 2000, when Fred took me on a jolly to Oshkosh, with Capt Jon & his lad in Traci. Fred later put her on floats.





              Looks like it has a new scheme now, eh? Got more photos?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

                Do yourself a HUGE favor...check out Stewart's. It's the most flexible, strong seamed, easy to use and by FAR the most healthy system to cover with. You wont ever be sorry!!!!! http://www.stewartsystems.aero/ I've used the other systems mentioned here....I wont use anything but Stewarts anymore.
                JH
                I'm so far behind, I think I'm ahead

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

                  Robert, that is how T-Rex was painted when I bought her. Only it looked like someone shot blasted it. So it is basically the same paint scheme but I added the fuse. color. I will post some more photos soon. Do you know the gentlemen who did the conversion to T-Rex? And do you have any other old photos of her? It is really cool to see those pictures.

                  Stewart's does sound like a really good process. There is a pretty big shop near here that does beautiful high dollar restorations that only uses Stewart's on their planes. But it is finished with a polyurethane paint, so plan on keeping it in a hangar or else cover it with some kind of padded hail cover. I recently asked the owner/operator of the shop if there was a finish product I could use with the build up process that could be rejuvenated, like dope, he said unfortunately no. But it is nice to have a more eco friendly process.
                  Last edited by T-Rex; 08-23-2009, 09:06.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

                    That is a PURE polyurethane...unlike an automotive poly, which has a bunch of plasticizers in it... there's NO need to keep it covered or padded! It'll outlast anything you find. It's the most flexible stuff on the market, bar none. I've got 10 year old samples here that I can wad up into a little ball and pull back out, and the finish isn't cracked. Dope gets old and brittle, so you need to rejuvinate...pure polyurethane doesn't.
                    JH
                    I'm so far behind, I think I'm ahead

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

                      So what does an aircraft covered in Stewerts look like after a hail storm? I have never seen one. Does the hail just bounce off without leaving that little ringworm crack?

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                      • #12
                        Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

                        The reason it cracks is because it wont flex. If it flexes, it wont crack. Dopes get hard and crack. Plasticizers in automotive paint get hard and crack (even with flex agent in it). A pure polyurethane wont crack as redily, because it doesn't have those. The samples I have here, like I said earlier, are over 10 years old, and you wad them up into a little ball and spread them back out and they aren't cracked. I haven't found any other paint that will do that.
                        One of the things that will lead to cracks quicker than anything is a thick finish...ie; extra coats, like the guys that think it's cool to try to hide the tapes or edges. That's as good a recipe for cracks as there is, no matter what the finish.
                        JH
                        Last edited by N96337; 08-23-2009, 15:08.
                        I'm so far behind, I think I'm ahead

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

                          Originally posted by T-Rex View Post
                          So what does an aircraft covered in Stewerts look like after a hail storm? I have never seen one. Does the hail just bounce off without leaving that little ringworm crack?
                          One of the three planes in our recent hailstorm was a Tri-Pacer just recovered with Stewerts. It took the most damage. Lots of small holes in the fabric and lots of ringworms. It suffered more than my 18-year-old Stits! It has lots of little patches on the wing, and is slated for another recover this winter.

                          This has generated some question about the relative strength of the different systems. A couple of our A&P's are going to cover frames with Stits, Ceconite/Dope, and Superflite and see what actual strengths are. It will be interesting to see the results. I am still leaning toward Stits for the T-Craft, although the Air Tech looks awfully inviting.

                          Since I patched the holes and am at least airworthy, my next first job is to sand through all the ringworms in the Enamal top coat, spray new silver and then overspray everything with PolyTone in order to buy me a few months of time before the snow flys.
                          Skip Egdorf
                          TF #895
                          BC12D N34237 sn7700

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

                            Did he talk to Stewarts and see what the problem was? I've used it for years and never ever seen it do anything like that...... I'm not buying that it was done properly to start with.
                            Just my personal experience with the system for the last 10+ years speaking...
                            JH
                            I'm so far behind, I think I'm ahead

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: recover/rebuild coming... Recommendations?

                              Originally posted by N96337 View Post
                              Did he talk to Stewarts and see what the problem was? I've used it for years and never ever seen it do anything like that...... I'm not buying that it was done properly to start with.
                              Just my personal experience with the system for the last 10+ years speaking...
                              JH
                              Yep, he has been in contact with Stewerts.

                              One of the "every cloud has a silver lining" things about this hail storm is that a number of our really good airplane people at this airport are now properly curious about the different covering systems and are looking hard at questions just like that. The users of the Stewerts systems think that they were doing it right and have been talking to the factory reps, etc, but who knows? We all want to find out. The good part about this for me is that a lot of good people will be looking over my shoulder and whatever path I choose, there will be a lot of fresh, objective, local experience to draw upon.
                              Skip Egdorf
                              TF #895
                              BC12D N34237 sn7700

                              Comment

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