Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

[Carrieve]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

Hi guys, In responce to the Tcraft "float". I have entered Spot Landing contests at fly in's and lost everytime. I slip as much as possible until about 10' up and then straighten it out and everything works out. Usually....

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

Has anyone tried riding thermals in their T-Craft. Although I rode as a passenger in a two place sailplane one time appx 20 years ago, I have not been in a glider since, and have not received any glider training, therefore I don't know how to go about riding a thermal and be able to climb to any significant altitude with power at idle. I don't know if the T-Craft has a low enough wing loading or if it is possible but I am fascinated by the possibility.

Frank DeBartolo
N43684

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

I have done it. A Taylorcraft is NO sailplane. I also flew a Schweitzer 2-22 and they flew about the same, a GLIDER, not a sailplane.
If you want to try it (and it is a blast) do not shut the engine down! Throttle back to where you aren't generating any thrust or drag and look for a Cue with a nice flat bottom. Turn into the wing that bumps up first and have fun. The cumulus clouds will cycle from flat bottom to a bit ragged as the virga start shredding out of the bottom and that means the lift is falling apart. Watch for another flat bottom that is cycling up and fly to it. It's great for increasing your fuel economy as long as you aren't actually trying to get anywhere.
Hank
Don't forget to keep the engine clear. A Taylorcraft doesn't land out nearly as well as a 2-22!

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

There is also a condition called Cloud Streets where Cues line up for many miles. It usually happens close to the coast where the clouds pop as the air hits the change in surface temperature at the coast. I flew from Hampton Roads Executive to Kitty Hawk with another good size buddy in very loose section with a C-150. The Cessna had 35 more ponies and only one skinny guy in it but he could only stay up with us a couple hundred feet lower. When he tried to climb he fell way behind. When he put the nose down to catch up he ended up way below us. It was a riot talking to him when he couldn't figure out how we were outperforming him. He wanted to look in the cowl when we landed.
The trick was we were flying under the cloud street in steady lift and he was in the sink side of the mini rotor. Never did tell him how we did it. Just suggested he get some sailplane instruction, smiled and walked away.
If you want to learn how to be a better stick, get some glider training. It's fun, will improve your flying and really takes any fear of an engine failure away. One of the first things you learn is how to "land out" and walk away. The plane may get bent, but there aren't many places you can't survive the landing if you keep your head in a Taylorcraft.
Hank

[DanBrown]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

How about adjusting the power for a 200 fpm decent at 55 indicated for a nice simulated sailplane.

One of my best soaring experiences in a power ac was when I had an Aero Commander 200D (Meyers design) based in Morrisville, VT. One winter morining just after a cold front passage, I filed IFR to Hartford, CT. After punching through a broken layer and on top at 8000 in smooth air, I saw a series of(;f lenticular clouds in the lee of the Green Mountains with the snow covered peaks coming through the lower clouds. Center allowed me direct Hartford, so I searched for the wave and quickly found it in smooth air. 15 inches of MP and 1500 rpm -- just enough to keep the engine warm and flying level at 200 mph indicated at 8000'. The clouds, mountains an lift ran out when the Greens ended, so a VFR descent to Bradley ended a great flight. http://vb.taylorcraft.org/new/dance.gif

[M Jones]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

Hank is right, the Taylorcraft isn't a sailplane, but may be one of the best powered gliders out there. I've done some one or two turn thermals in mine, scratching out maybe 500' or so on a strong day. It can be fun, and might help to understand when you can keep or even gain some altitude in your Taylorcraft by managing speeds if you need that some day (still with some altitude). Not recommending trying to extend a glide in a power out emergency of course. We all know what can happen trying that! The general rule when flying gliders, at least here in the Midwest is that you'll find the best lift once you've committed for landing and are on downwind. That's the way it seemed when I started anyway.

The cumulus clouds will cycle from flat bottom to a bit ragged as the virga start shredding out of the bottom and that means the lift is falling apart.

Virga, Viagra, eventually we're bound to loose lift I guess... (Oh, for us males I should have said!)

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

ALWAYS ignore that strong lift you seem to fly through on downwind to an emergency landing! Sucker lift has killed a lot of people!
Hank
Viagra in a sailplane to keep it up. What a concept! IS there still risk of sailplane damage if you stay up over 4 hours?

If you find you are still up after 4 hours, see your IA immediately!

Viagra, a pill non pilots take to impress their girlfriends
Virga, those shredded bits of cloud bottoms that indiate cool air is falling out of the bottom of the cloud.

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

Hank,

Thanks for the response on flying thermals. It's good to know that there is more to flying T-Crafts than casual sight seeing, cross country flying, and touch and goes.

Frank D
N43684

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

Hank,

One other thing that you might be able to comment on. Why is it that somethimes on an established stable approach there seems to be plenty of lift until short final then sink starts to occur and power is needed to make it to the aim point. I find that if I want to make sure my power off approaches are successful, it is best to plan to be a bit too high when turning final and be ready to use slip if needed to make it to the aim point.

Frank D
N43684

[Robert Lees]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

If it hasn't been mentioned before: APOD shows some nice rotor with lift:

[DanBrown]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

Hank,

One other thing that you might be able to comment on. Why is it that somethimes on an established stable approach there seems to be plenty of lift until short final then sink starts to occur and power is needed to make it to the aim point. I find that if I want to make sure my power off approaches are successful, it is best to plan to be a bit too high when turning final and be ready to use slip if needed to make it to the aim point.

Frank D
N43684

You're getting the wing tip vortexes from the Taylorcraft Heavies landing before you.

[flyguy]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

At my home airport there is almost always a "jump the fence" batch of lift just as I cross the 4 lane road about 100 yards before the airport fence.
One sec I am right on glidepath and the next I am elevating upward with the nose pointing down. I think here it is from going from grass to asphalt to grass again; that is my best guess.
I think each airport must have it own oddities on final approach.

Rob, are those weird cloud formations from rotors? Terrain doesn't look all that rough--photo from high altitude?

On the volume control thing, I guess I had it happen once. Me and passenger, 65 hp, three tanks, probably over gross (what did I know back then?), inversion at about 4000 feet. Going up per normal and we hit the hot air and the plane just leveled out at climb power and at the same time we noticed that the temperature had jumped about 20 degrees warmer. Had to work for any climb above that alititude.

Darryl

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

[QUOTE=Frank DeBartolo;51008]Hank,

Why is it that somethimes on an established stable approach there seems to be plenty of lift until short final then sink starts to occur and power is needed to make it to the aim point.

Beats me Frank. The only time I ever saw that was coming in behind a carrier in an E-2 and hit the "burble". Feels like the wings came off, but if the pilot just holds attitude it will bounce back to glide slope and land fine.
I only made a couple of landings on the carrier (USS America) and I am NOT a navy pilot. I was a maintenance officer and had to ride along once in a while. I DID NOT like the way the E-2 flew. What a PIG! Terrible pitch and roll feel systems, pitch change with throttle change, different yaw response between right and left rudder, TERRIBLE air data computer system to try and "fix" the handling. Just the opposite of the C-130. Fly it like a giant 4 engine Piper Cub. Just "plane" sweet.
Grumman built so many fantastic planes. I never figured out what happened to the E-2.
Hank

OK, the A-6 gear doors were built by Rube Goldberg, but at least they worked reliably.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

I usually use a slight slip on final, better visibility and complete control of ups and downs. Increase slip if lift pops up, decrease if lift is lost. I have a great time soaring too, I use about 200 RPM above zero thrust or around 1200 RPM kind of simulates a better glider or sailplane.

[DanBrown]

Re: Budd Davisson quip about Taylorcrafts at Oshkosh

One of the issues is the wind speed gradient or wind shear on final approach. If the headwind component drops rapidly as altitude is lost, it results in loss of air speed and a rapid sink (or stall if the nose is not dropped and/or power added). Alternatively, if the wind speed or direction changes to give additional headwind, there can be a rapid sense of lift until the aircraft adjusts to the new wind speed. Some fields have a typical complex pattern of winds with position and altitude with terrain wind funneling, differential heating and shielding in the lee of tree lines, etc.. It can keep one busy..