It did not start

[Len Petterson]

Re: It did not start

I dont fly in the realy cold weather This winter I am on a privat runway full of snow,but fall and spring I have to leave the primer pulled out 1/2 stroke or so and run in and give it another shot after she starts, just too keep her going. Not to fast with the primer pump as it will stall the engine by floding.
Puch it sloooooowly.
If the armstrong starter get weak or over heated it needs a recharge at the coffe shop.
Len

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: It did not start

I really enjoy propping planes by hand and have started engines from fractional HP model engines to 20HP twin cylinders, to 35 HP through ~80 HP VWs all the way up to a 220 HP Cont radial on a Stearman. Just a couple of qualifiers for those of you that like this kind of thing. The WORST to start were the VWs. Not hard to start, just short throw, "poppy", backwards turning little monsters that start best with a "flip" with one hand on each blade. Down right DANGEROUS if you don't get some instruction first hand from someone who has started them A LOT. The one I will NEVER do again is the Stearman. It started but backfired first and scared me half to death. USE THE CRANK INERTIA STARTER! The only injury I ever got was a traumatic amputation of my left thumb (yea, for real) by a stinking sub 1HP MODEL ENGINE! Glow plug wire caught in the prop and yanked my hand in. I still have the plane, engine and thumb (back on my hand). My insurance decided reattaching my thumb was "Cosmetic Surgery" and refused to pay (I have a new insurance company).
To the subject of this thread. I think the 65HP engines are among the sweetest starting engines I have worked with. I have started dozens of different ones and guess what, no two started the same! If someone tries to help you and says you are doing it all wrong, they are probably full of it (unless it is the guy who owned the engine before you). What you are hearing from the tribe really is great stuff. If you don't know how the last guy started it, or it is a fresh overhaul, try each way recommended till you find what works best on THAT engine and write it down. Starting an engine for someone who hasn't got a procedure yet is really rewarding and sometimes takes days (sometimes one pull, but that is REALLY RARE).
Big things to remember (and these are universal).

TIE THE TAIL, TWICE! I tie to the tail wheel and the lift handle till I really know the engine. It's really exciting when the throttle friction is loose and the engine goes to full throttle before you can get to it.

PUT SOMEONE IN THE COCKPIT (the FAA requires it and starting an engine alone, especially a new one, is STUPID!!!) When I cut my thumb off there was a Navy Corpsman who worked trauma on the field. He is probably the reason I am typing with all my digits now).

KEEP A FIRE EXTINGUISHER BY THE WING TIP WITH A PERSON WHO KNOWS HOW TO USE IT! DON'T use the kid that hangs by the fence and make sure he knows WHEN to use it.

On a new engine WATCH THE OIL PRESSURE!! No oil can make a new engine old REAL fast

When you pull the prop DON'T wrap your fingers around the edge of the prop!

When you get tired, STOP AND REST! You WILL get tired and if you aren't sharp and alert you could stumble into the prop. Even if it doesn't start it could still kill you!

ASSUME THE ENGINE IS "HOT" even with the mags off! I have primed an engine, closed the throttle, confirmed the mags were cold and went to pull a couple of blades through. Guess what? Started first pull with the mag switch COLD! 65s are fun to stop with no mag switch. You can lean all day and they will keep running. Shut off the fuel valve when the bowl and gascolator are full. (don't forget and take off with the fuel off! I leave mine on if I'm flying, but turn it off when I'm messing with a strange engine).

GET EXPERIENCED HELP! I even saw a throttle hooked up backwards. I doubt it would start cracked just slightly closed from wide open, but WOW would that be exciting if it did!

DON'T accept help from people you don't KNOW are experienced and know what to do. There are VERY few people who get to prop my plane, but most where I fly know I know how to do it and I prop a lot of planes.

DON'T try and do all this from just written instructions! I haven't even scratched the surface here. Get some help from someone experienced. When I was in the Navy we had a Tech Rep get hit by a prop (E-2C). It was NOT pretty.

Hank

[Larry Lyons]

Re: It did not start

I was in the Navy we had a Tech Rep get hit by a prop (E-2C). It was NOT pretty.

Hank

Yea memories, I had to prop/pull though an E-2 once, it was flooded and we pulled blades for hours (seemed like it anyway) and although I have not lost a thumb I have been bit by those little whirling dervishes. Propped a Stearman with a 450 Pratt once too. That was exciting on start up!
Larry

[N96337]

Re: It did not start

I've propped the VW's too Hank..they're awful!! However, I've propped alot of round engines, and they're no sweat at all!! I even got to prop a Beaver on floats from underneath once...just stand behind the prop, in front of the spreader, keep a hand on the spreader bar, get it all set, and swing the blade..when it starts it's going to go away from you, so no biggie. I had a friend that had a PT-22 and I used to prop that alot for him.. seemed everyone else wanted to swing it too hard and fast, making the impulse not want to catch. With all the round engines, it's not the speed that you swing it, it's the fact that you're going to swing it all the way through the arc. Same with the Continentals......set it up right, and don't get so carried away with trying to get it spinning too fast! When you're putting all that effort into swinging it fast, you tend to not pay attention to getting out of the way or keeping your balance. I just walk by the 985's and swing it while walking...never had any close calls at all. The shorter the prop, the quicker it's coming back around (like the VW's), so those long bladed round engines start very easily and don't fire up all that fast when they do catch, so you still have time to keep moving through and away.
John

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: It did not start

The E-2 I'm talking about was an E-2C Hawkeye. It's a Navy Airborne Early Warning Command and Control plane with two T56-A-425 turboprop engines and over 5,000 hp each. I have seen one on deck for maintenance facing the bow windmill and it was an awesome sight. I really think we could have started it turning that fast.
When I started the Stearman it was only 220 HP, not a 450 P&W. The 220 backfiring scared me half to death, the 450 would have frightened me all the way to death. Starting doesn't seem so bad, it was the prop suddenly jerking out of my hands and spinning the other way that scared me. It spun back, bounced and fired forward. Not at all what I expected. It was really pretty hard to reach the prop and do a smooth pull and I'm 6' 3" and 210# (at that time). I still like the inertial starter. Spin it up, pull the handle and you are running. Beautiful engines. If I ever need to prop another radial that size again I will give the walk past and pull technique a try. At least I get a head start running for my life!
I used to have a video of some Marines starting an F-4U in the Pacific. Funniest start I have ever seen. A boot is placed over the bottom prop blade with a rope and a bungee hooked to it. A group of Marines holds the rope back while another group runs with the bungee. When the first group lets go the bungee spins the prop and the boot flies off. What you want to notice is the last Marine on the bungee is the only one with a helmet. The boot flies off the blade and smacks him in the back flipping him right off his feet. He MUST have known what was coming, yet he didn't hesitate. Marines are a special breed.
Hank

[Larry Lyons]

Re: It did not start

Old age on my end Hank, I was referring to the S-2 not the E-2. The 450 Stearman was on the field to fly aerobatics for our annual airshow. Do not remember who it was though as that was the same day I got my ride in a P-51. This was about 1965 or 66, I was working there mowing grass and pumping gas before I my college career went south and Uncle Sam came calling.
Larry
PS: There was an S-2 at Oshkosh this summer, I believe that was the first time since I was in the Navy 40 years ago that I have seen one.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: It did not start

Never got to mess with the S-2, but got more than I ever wanted of the C-1 (for you non-Navy types, the C-1 is the same airframe (basic) as the S-2). The C-1 is just a cargo version of the anti-Sub warfare S-2. The main thing the C-1 did was to collect corrosion on the flight deck.
Old age is catching us all. In 65 I think I could have hand propped a B-52, now every little bit seems to help. I don't get out of the way as fast as I used to.
Hank

[Dan Michaels]

Re: It did not start

I started it up today!

Mags off
Fuel on
Prime (3 pumps)
Fuel off
Throttle out all the way
6 pulls through
Mags on
PULL
Back inside fuel on

Brakes were set and right wheel cocked, propped from right side behind prop.

It never hesitated, fired right up and sat there and idled.

I would like to say I took it up and flew it but I did not. The rudder pedals were too far away for me to taxi well (left was not too bad) but right was way too far. I went and got my engine cover a moving pad and put that behind me. That helped but not enough for my comfort. I am going to make some pedal extensions. I had a set for the 172 that I made. Sold a few sets to others as well so it was not just my short legs.

I did taxi around quite a bit and got a feel for the plane. Just a little more squirrelly than the Viking. Tail comes right up with a little power, and noses over nicely with too much brakes.

Is it best to keep the tail on the ground till you pick up speed or bring it right up?

Dan

[dewhitaker]

Re: It did not start

Congratulations Dan! Please stay safe! Did you have the tail tied down while starting, or have a competent person at the controls? It only takes a few seconds to tie a tail down while propping, then you are sure it will not get away from you and spoil your day.

When starting your take-off roll, maintain back pressure to keep directional control with the tailwheel. As you pick up speed, the rudder will become effective, somewhere around 20 mph. At this point the tail will want to come up, but you can help it a little with forward pressure, if you so desire. If you are doing a soft field takeoff, hold the tail up just enough to clear the grass and allow the plane to lift off at a slow speed, then fly in ground effect until you can get airspeed enough to climbout. Be careful with crosswinds, you may want to apply foreward pressure with the yoke to keep the tail higher on the takeoff roll. Then when you lift off, you can do it crisply without any danger of settling back down on to the runway.

Concerning braking, I use a quick jab at one brake pedal at a time, left - right - left - right. This helps to prevent the airplane from nosing over. Standing on both brakes at the same time is a good way to nose over. Of course, if you are using the brakes, you should have the wheel all the way back to maintain a downward force on the tailwheel.

Finding a good tailwheel instructor and brushing up on these techniques may pay big dividends if it has been a while since you have flown one.

[high time cub]

Re: It did not start

those long bladed round engines start very easily and don't fire up all that fast when they do catch, so you still have time to keep moving through and away.
John

Although it starts very easy, the Kinner is the exception here. Because it's a "long stroke" engine, when it fires, it goes off like a shot gun blast. Here's a good thread on Kinner starting:

From Mal Shipton:
I have the only one in Australia (recently purchased
in the US) and would like to know the starting
technique folk find most successful for the Kinner
K5. Happy to get your experience!
From Sandy Brown:
Whatever you do, start the engine on the LEFT
mag only. Switch to BOTH after she's running. The
RIGHT mag has a very advanced setting and many
a hand-proper has been hurt. The impulse cou-
pling on the LEFT mag delays the firing until just
after top dead center.
From John Cox:
Its been a while but as I recall with my K-5 Kinner
Fleet It needs a lot of fuel to get it started. With
the magnetos off I would rock the propeller back
and forth to get some gas to run out of the bottom
of the air box. Position the propeller for starting
and then turn the magnetos on, if both have an
impulse coupling or only the one with the impulse
coupling. Beware of moving the propeller after the
magnetos are hot. If you move the propeller with
them on and the impulse snaps the engine will
start. I once watched a friend come oh so close to
killing himself when propping Ed Marquart's
Fairchild 22. He said make it hot and then decided
to move the propeller down a bit before pulling it
through. It started and he was standing there only
a few inches from a spinning propeller. You will
love your Fleet. I miss flying mine; it is spread all
over my hangar here on the farm.
From John Sommerfield:
All Kinner engines, regardless of horsepower, start
very quickly. As you are aware there is no cough,
sputter, or hesitation before it catches and is at
idle RPM. On occasion the prop will kick and re-
verse direction with considerable force. This typi-
cally occurs when the engine is not sufficiently
primed. Accordingly, one cannot afford to be dis-
tracted, off balance, or in an awkward position
when starting a Kinner engine.
I have personally seen the nasty results
of three Kinner starting accidents. Therefore, there
are two things I never do:
1. Stand in front of the propeller and pull it down-
ward.
2. Wrap any knuckled joint of my fingers around
the edge of the prop blade.
Two propeller positions will allow safe starting.
These are approximately at the 5:30 and 8:00
o'clock positions when the impulse trips. I prefer
to stand with the side of my body in front of the
prop, facing the left wingtip. I place the palm of my
left hand on the face of the prop blade with only
the ends of my fingertips over the edge of the
blade. I then walk toward the left wingtip with my
arm trailing behind me pulling the blade. When the
impulse trips, I am outside the propeller arc and
walking away from it.
Be attentive when hand starting any engine,
the propeller has no conscience.

[Dan Michaels]

Re: It did not start

I made one of the extensions, it may need a little tweaking but I think it will work. I may put a small bolt through the top if I fly quite often. The way it is it can be off and on in seconds and it is plenty solid.

Dan

[N96337]

Re: It did not start

High time Cub, notice he uses the same thing I was talking about...get it set, then walk by. I've propped lots of Kinners... usually what people do is try to spin them too fast...the impulse kicks out at very low rpm on them. They're still MUCH slower than a VW with that little short prop!!
John

[high time cub]

Re: It did not start

Hi John,

Yes, I could tell that you were very experience in the Kinner starting dance! Also, your correct, that a slow pull through is all that's needed.

What generally happens, (and why people try to prop faster) is that the Apollo impulse coupling, which resides out in the open (between the mag and accessory case), gets dirty and sticks. A shot of LPS, now and then and your good to go!

BTW, don't you just love the simple Mag drives with drain holes and NO seals in the accessory case!

HT