Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

[N95334]

I received an E-mail today from the EAA, it starts out with:

EAA is sending this e-Notice to members in FL as a member service.

Calls are coming into EAA headquarters from members throughout Florida with growing concerns about obtaining ethanol-free auto fuel for their aircraft as the result of a developing state-mandated policy for using 10 percent ethanol additives in gasoline.

Several EAA members and chapters have established a coalition as a way to fight the new state policy and to educate state legislators, Governor Crist, and key members of his staff about the real-world hazards ethanol blended autogas can cause aircraft. The key first step in the education aspect of the coalitions effort occurs this Saturday (6/21/2008, 10 a.m. through 11 a.m. eastern time) on the Flight Time Radio show, an internet program hosted by Milford Shirley, President of EAA Chapter 193, Jacksonville, FL.

What effect is there on the Taylorcraft( Cont 65hp) with 10% ethanol?
Does this void my auto fuel STC?

[3Dreaming]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

[QUOTE Does this void my auto fuel STC?[/QUOTE]

Most likely.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

This is going to be a major issue as avgas gets more expensive.

Does any engine expert know exactly what would need to be changed for ethanol-laced car gas to be safely usable?

I'm not asking about paper or rules or governments. I'm asking what MECHANICALLY someone would need to change on the airplane and why.

I know about the water absorption, that is a preflight inspection item and/or a storage item.

What type of rubber seals, gaskets, O-rings, etc are used on cars that allow cars to run this same ethanol-laced gas for hundreds of thousands of miles?

Would Teflon lined hoses solve the rubber swelling problem? What kind of hoses do cars use that allow this gas to be run safely?

The original STC was good enough when you could find car gas without ethanol. Now we may need another STC that makes the airplane itself safe to use today's car gas in.

[Len Petterson]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

Teflon is imprevius to both gasoline and alcohols.
Now: How makes FAA aproved Teflon hoses?
Apply a firesleeve to them, they will last a lot longer in a fire as the Teflon in them is very thin and SS outer lining gets hot fast.
Len

[DannyDot]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

Texas has almost all ethanol added car gas too. We need an STC to allow operation with 10% ethanol. What would it take? It doesn't seem to hurt cars much, why does it hurt airplanes?

Danny Deger

[NY86]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

Alcohols dissolve shellac on floats and attack many types of rubber. If you have a neoprene tip needle in your Stromberg it's a huge no-no.

Delrin, Viton and Teflon are all impervious to most chemicals, alcohols included.

Alcohol free gas can still be had, at least in some places, because the alcohol has to be added right before the gas is trucked to the pump. If you can intercept it before the alcohol is added, you're home free. Check local fuel suppliers, especially those who service agricultural markets. You may have to buy a big quantity, like 250 gallons, but you can still get it.

The real difference wth cars is that there aren't a whole lot of cars around from the 40's and those that are can pull over to the side of the road when they quit.

[astjp2]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

You probably wont get Alcohol approved, it has issues with corrision and aluminum parts..things like tanks, lines, carbs....Tim

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

Ethanol will never be approved in these old birds. Not only will it corrode aluminum, certian rubbers don't it either. Also is more prone to vapor locking. Depending on where you lived, especially the midwest, you had to be careful already not to use car gas with ethanol in it. Now everyone has to be careful.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

You probably wont get Alcohol approved, it has issues with corrision and aluminum parts..things like tanks, lines, carbs....Tim

Tim,

Of course it would not be just a pencil-whip paperwork deal, but the way this is going it might indeed be worth the effort to solve these problems.

There are known coatings and surface treatments for aluminum (and steel) that will greatly resist corrosion. Alodine, flame spray, Kal-Gard, etc. etc.

Car engines now have aluminum engine blocks, aluminum heads, and aluminum intake systems, and appear to not be failing at any significant rate using ethanol gas. Many also have metal fuel tanks, metal fuel lines, etc. Cars probably use the cheapest rubber hoses too. To run ethanol car gas, and have to change rubber hoses every three years, is not a big deal.

This is not an un-solve-able issue.

[flyguy]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

My carb has a steel needle, my gauge float is epoxy coated, my fuel lines aux-to-main are copper, fuel valves are brass and teflon, but the lines to carb and gascolator are garden-variety aviation stuff (ahah the weak link.)

I don't think it would be hard to make a BC12 safe for running 5-10 % ethanol, but I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble. The combination of getting the lead out, and less cost (maybe cooler running) would be the motivation for me.

I would be good if a tanker or tankers of non-treated 87 could he distributed to a few different airports in large enough quantities to make it economically attractive for people involved.

At my airport we are only talking 60 cents a gallon difference so it is hardly worth the trouble, however small.

Sure wish I could get TCP for the lead, though.
Darryl

[crispy critter]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

Some of the suppliers or bulk plants in our area will sell you gas at thier cost if you pick it up in mid size quanities(100-300 gallons). Here in east ky it is not a problem because you can't find a gas station that sells ethanol...yet. I hope it stays that way. I have talked to the local bulk plants and they all said the same as above,it is added as it is loaded onto the truck. We are lucky enough to have a bulk plant located less then 1/2 mile away from the airport. As for being worth it to us,you bet it is. Not just because we feel it is better for our little engines but the nearest 100LL for us is almost 50 nautical miles away.

[flyguy]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

Yeah, if I could get 87 WITHOUT THE ETHANOL it would be fine with me too.

There is one possibility here in central valley California, but I haven't followed up on it. One of our young, just starting, duster pilots reported that he thought the 87 "auto" fuel that they had at the duster airstrip didn't have ethanol in it. I have heard that some places (even in Calif?) that ethanol-free 87 was availabe to farmers. I probably should check with him and see if he was correct.
Darryl

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

Ethanol is EVERYWHERE , just test it each time. I gave up on trying to get it for airplanes here in Alliance. I have "tractor" gas if anyone wants it. The 182's here at the Sydive Center use it all the time, no problem so far. I use a mixture in our BC12D.
The supplier may take it to a dealer and then HE may adultrate it with ethanol to make a bigger profit.

[crispy critter]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

Forrest.....it's not everywhere yet. Nobody in east ky is using it anywhere at all.....you can't even buy it here if you ask for it. However,I have talked to 3 of the local bulk plants that supply and deliver gas to 90% of the stations in the area and he said it is coming. It is his understanding that it would be mixed at the bulk plant as it is being loaded onto the trucks. Sooo, we can go get our gas from them before it is laced with ethanol......and it will also save us a few cents on the gallon(10-30 cents worth per gallon).

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Ethanol Gas and the Taylorcraft

Please just test it! A lot of folks are adulterating at night, out of sight, to make a profit.