no shoulder harness for me :(

[Guest]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

Is this an older harness installation or is it recent and you want him to approve it? If it has been done in the past and there is a logbook entry you should be good to go. If there is no entry, I would just remove them, get the annual completed and then find an A&P that will install them as a minor change per the FAA's own advice. (If he won't do it). This is probably not something an owner can do without an airframe mechanic's sign off.

While this inspection may be causing you to pull your hair out, at least you are getting the thing looked over thoroughly and my thinking is that if you have this mechanic do subsequent annuals they will be much smoother. The first annual on an aircraft is always a paperwork pit for an IA but after that one mostly looks at new AD's, etc. On the one hand the guy is being a pain in the keester but on the other hand he does seem to be doing a thorough inspection. And after this he won't be so unfamiliar with rag and tube planes...

excellent advice

[wlas]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

I took a look at the hooker web site and after reading it, if the plane was in my shop and I was doing the annual, I would have the get a field approval on the installation, the guy has a STC for Cessna and champ, but not T-craft, I could use the data from the STC, but would have to word it as the same with the exception that T-craft is not on the AML list and the attachment is different and I would have to show that the attachment point would meet the requirements of AC 43.13-2A page 71 section 3 attachment methods. I just got a field approved for a Alaskan bush wheel, tail wheel on a T-craft using roughly the same method.

[Dennis Keels]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

I think I would run that IA off and fly half way around the world if I had too and find IA thats not afraid to sign his name. Sounds like that guy would'nt sign off a brand new one.

[crispy critter]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

I must agree with Dennis on this one. Hinde sight is 20/20 but I would probably take it or pay someone to take it somewhere else. Hell,it would have save you time and a shit-load of money to have taken 2-3 weeks off work and flown the thing up to Alaska or to Forrest Barbers place,or to my place in east Ky. This guy is starting to get a LOT rediculous on some of this stuff.

[Guest]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

I can't agree with the critique of this IA.

I think/suspect he's being very thorough with an A/C that has been found to have some legimate issues and now he's looking for the rest of the funky stuff done by prior owner/operators.

I bet he's not going to put his customer or his name at unnecessary risk.

As we saw wlas just discovered and posted that he too would have to do a feild approval for the Hooker harness as he has done in the past. So the IA's comments that "I'm not satisfied with their answer" makes a little more sense. A feild approval may be expensive and time consuming at his geography, its Arizona not Alaska.

With all respect to DJ you are only hearing half the story and its not a very good story because DJ is getting dinged for everything that got bypassed or worked around for that last 20 years.

BTW-How come the IA that signed for that JB weld valve isn't being turned in and having his ticket yanked? That's the guy who screwed up.

Anything can be repaired even crappy tanks but is it the most economical approach? You have to pay for all that goes into the repair, its not a labor of love for teh mechanic like it is for us (I think). Recall the threads from earlier in the year where guys pulled out tanks and had them welded up and put them back to find that they still leaked? That had to be an expensive event two tank removals, a welding job and a replacement tank purchase.

I bet it would have been cheaper in that case to just get a new tank for $600 right up front just like this IA is doing rather than repair, do paperwork, take chance on the repair longevity and possibly remove it twice because the repair was crap. So I am saying that some of the decision may be based on the total cost and readily availible resources.

Dave

[alwaysoar]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

Take it out for the annual, and then put it back in afterwards. You are not committing a crime and won't go to jail or even get a fine because there is a lot of documentation supporting installing Hookers from Hooker and the FAA, and if you install it according to the Hooker instructions and the AC, you'll be safer and the next IA won't even blink. It's possible to get too carried away with dotting the "I's" and crossing the "T's" with these old airplanes by applying 21st century standards to old airplanes. JUST DO IT! I installed them in my BC12-D and loved the peace of mind.

[N74DV]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

How come the IA that signed for that JB weld valve isn't being turned in and having his ticket yanked?

True... it's a touchy issue for me. I bought the plane from my cousin. He had the plane for 5 years and that IA signed it off almost every time. There are other issues that were signed off and were 110% illegal but I won't get into them here.

My cousin feels bad and I don't want to get into a family dispute over this. The blame really does lie mostly with me. I should have had a pre-buy done even though it was my cousins plane. Lesson learned. I guess these are the things you learn the hard way in your younger years (not too young at 33 I guess )

The upside is this plane will be very legal when done and at least the IA will have a intimate relationship with the plane for future work.

It's the price tag for the annual that's killing me at the moment.

[Guest]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

True... it's a touchy issue for me. I bought the plane from my cousin. He had the plane for 5 years and that IA signed it off almost every time. There are other issues that were signed off and were 110% illegal but I won't get into them here.

My cousin feels bad and I don't want to get into a family dispute over this. The blame really does lie mostly with me. I should have had a pre-buy done even though it was my cousins plane. Lesson learned. I guess these are the things you learn the hard way in your younger years (not too young at 33 I guess )

The upside is this plane will be very legal when done and at least the IA will have a intimate relationship with the plane for future work.

It's the price tag for the annual that's killing me at the moment.

Hi DJ,

You are too hard on yourself.

Its prudent to have a pre-buy true but the only person responsible for letting the illegal issues slip buy is the IA.

Your cousin isn't a fault either but its a touchy situation as you say.

The goods news, little as it may be, is that the future will look better when you use this fellow next time.

I would check out factory harnesses.

Best wishes, I been where you are at. I may have said this before but afterwards I am reluctant to part with the a/c because I now know it and don't wanna go thru that again. and yes, I had two tickets pulled after my ordeal (for 6 months as I recall). I have zero sympathy for IAs that intentionally cheat the rules and complete understanding for those that make mistakes, we all do that. I am an IA for about 8 or 10 years now.

Dave

[n6346m]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

DJ
It's time to get a new IA. It sounds to me like you're getting a "legal" annual, not a safe one. The IA can tell your widow that the airplane was perfectly legal, too bad that you smashed your brain into the panel and died in a perfectly survivable accident. I personally know of two (count 'em two, how many do you know?) individuals that died in very survivable accidents because they were not wearing harnesses. They were both killed in floatplane crashes where the coroner determined that they both died of drowning due to being temporarily knocked out from non life threathening injuries. A shoulder harness probably could have saved both of their lives.
Just tell your moron IA to make it happen. Anyone with so little common sence will never get to sign my logbooks. It's time to cut bait.
Bob

[crispy critter]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

I must agree with Bob on this one.

[whake]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

A shoulder harness is like gasoline I won't fly without it...Wag-Aeros belts are STC'd for a lot of small planes,I will call them and see if we can ad the Taylorcraft.

[jmvolpp]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

DJ,

I, too, am one who knew a pilot who died and good friend who has been paraplegic for 25 years for want of a shoulder harness in an aircraft crash.
I hope by now that your mechanic has read the FAA policy statement (ACE-00-23.561-01), and its associated references, which provide for installation of your shoulder harnesses as a minor change. Said entry might read as follows: Removed seat belts and installed Hooker Harness part #___ & ___ aircraft safety and shoulder belts on previously approved end fittings. This policy statement is remarkable for its considerable common sense latitude for such installation in old aircraft, and speaks to the reality of added safety without compromise to operation of the aircraft. It is also a very uncomplicated application to the Tcraft. There are plenty of places where one benefits from a rigid by-the-book mechanic - this is one where a more relaxed posture better serves the purpose.

Mike V.

[Guest]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

DJ
It's time to get a new IA. It sounds to me like you're getting a "legal" annual, not a safe one. The IA can tell your widow that the airplane was perfectly legal, too bad that you smashed your brain into the panel and died in a perfectly survivable accident. I personally know of two (count 'em two, how many do you know?) individuals that died in very survivable accidents because they were not wearing harnesses. They were both killed in floatplane crashes where the coroner determined that they both died of drowning due to being temporarily knocked out from non life threathening injuries. A shoulder harness probably could have saved both of their lives.
Just tell your moron IA to make it happen. Anyone with so little common sence will never get to sign my logbooks. It's time to cut bait.
Bob

So Bob how would you like it if someone refered to you as a moron?

Do you really think that's the right way to speak of another man?

Dave

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

I think the emotions are getting higher than this group is known for. It's easy to say things that just "don't come out right" on a discussion group. I have to admit that this IA is probably NOT the right guy to be doing this annual, BUT he is being conservative and can become a good Taylorcraft inspector with time. Question is, does DJ want to be the one who trains him (and pays the cost). It costs a lot to build a relationship (in money, time and patience)with your mechanic and it sounds like this relationship has too many problems to be saved.
For the NEXT time, when one of us gets an A&P or IA who seems to go full conservative based on lack of knowledge of our planes, let's send him to the group to learn. It's really hard for some people to admit they don't "know" when they are the one with the certificates and you are "just the owner".
This has been a good discussion but we shouldn't drop to name calling, even if it seems appropriate. None of us has all the facts and none of us are in the IAs shoes (or DJs).
Sure wish I could get you with my IA.
Hank

[Guest]

Re: no shoulder harness for me

I think the emotions are getting higher than this group is known for. It's easy to say things that just "don't come out right" on a discussion group. I have to admit that this IA is probably NOT the right guy to be doing this annual, BUT he is being conservative and can become a good Taylorcraft inspector with time. Question is, does DJ want to be the one who trains him (and pays the cost). It costs a lot to build a relationship (in money, time and patience)with your mechanic and it sounds like this relationship has too many problems to be saved.
For the NEXT time, when one of us gets an A&P or IA who seems to go full conservative based on lack of knowledge of our planes, let's send him to the group to learn. It's really hard for some people to admit they don't "know" when they are the one with the certificates and you are "just the owner".
This has been a good discussion but we shouldn't drop to name calling, even if it seems appropriate. None of us has all the facts and none of us are in the IAs shoes (or DJs).
Sure wish I could get you with my IA.
Hank

Well said Hank, just recall that DJ has said in a prior post (a few up the ladder) that there were 110% illegal issues according to DJ that this man caught and a prior IA had looked past for years. I doubt your guy would look past these too.

I don't think that you would say that in those cases cases he had anything to learn about t-crafts or that DJ is bearing the expense of training him on those issues but about installing harnesses perhaps. Yet there are other ways to address that.

The IA that really did the screwing over is the one who passed all this on.

There's 3 sides to every story, even when you like both people involved.