illegal to have nav lights???

[flyguy]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Nah, I don't even know what to say,on the floorboards. (maybe that I'm glad I don't have him for an AI, IA, whatever.)
DC
I just had this hilarious picture of weak floorboards giving way at +3.8 and having two feet hanging out the bottom of the plane.

[Garry Crookham]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

I hate to jump back in on this thread, but to clear up some misunderstanding concerning required equipment in Class B and C airspace please review FAR 91.215. It states that if your aircraft didn't originally have an "engine driven" electrical system, or hasn't been subsequently refitted with an "engine driven" electrical system, you may operate within the 30 mile transponder ring of Class B airspace, without a transponder, as long as you remain clear (under the floor) of that airspace. To operate within Class B or C airspace you will need an operating transponder with an alitiude encoder. ATC can grant you permission to enter the B or C airspace without a transponder (good luck!) with prior notice. Also if you don't have nav lights and an anti-collision beacon or strobe you aren't legal to fly at night even if you don't have an electrical system...this subject was discussed here a couple of years ago with MUCH gusto, the archives probably contain the thread, if it didn't burn from the flames! ELP is Class C, you will need a transponder or prior permission.

Garry Crookham
N5112M
Tulsa

[Guest]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Perhaps you might politely ask why he thinks that would not be the way they came out of the factory? He is talking like he wants to see the detailed design drawings, which of course are not generally available to your average IA.

Has he asked you to prove that your Taylorcraft came out of the factory with steel in the fuselage? Or wood spars? Don't forget, the ribs are supposed to be Titanium (solid, with gold leaf) but don't let him see your aluminium ones.

Rob and all,

I could't keep quiet on this one.

After seeing the silly unauthorized things that a/c owners put in and on their airplanes I think his position is entirely reasonable.

How many posts have you seen that mentioned undocumented and/or unauthorized engine installations, prop installations, elect, exhaust,sealed struts,tail wheel... they didn't come from the factory that way.

That's whole point of a type conformity inspection to unravel that stuff isn't it?

We do not want people that do such a piss poor job of inspecting an airplane that a wing pulls off, do we? Is that the kind of $150 annual you want?

If someone is giving your a/c a close look at annual you should feel thankful that he's covering both of your butts and stop bad mouthing him and others like him. Ironically he's the one that earned the inspection authorization (and probably goes for annual training), what qualifications must one have to become a so called owner expert that will educate him? what qualifications must one have to earn forum membership?

I get tired of hearing bitching about IA's doing good and complete annuals. Its an airplane man!

[Garry Crookham]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Hi Dave,
Thanks for jumping into this pot of boiling water, those of us who have inspection authorizations seem to have targets painted on our backs. Don't be surprised if you receive some hate e-mail....I have. I'm now a "Federal Aviation Regulation Nazi"! Some on this forum are critical of DJ's IA for not stating a regulation to support his concern but I'm a FAR Nazi for providing supporting FARs to back up my comments.
The owner or operator of an aircraft is responsible for assuring his or her airplane is maintained in an airworthy condition, including being familiar with the regulations. What each owner/operator needs to realize is that maintaining their aircraft should be a joint effort between the owner and the A&P/IA. And by joint effort I'm not suggesting that the owner need to get his hands dirty, just know the rules and regs, be somewhat familiar with the paperwork associated with their airplane, and at least ask for a price quote so it won't be a surprise if the annual on his Champ is $1600 (and don't ask the IA to ignore something that's not proper).

Rant off/Flame suit on

Garry Crookham
Tulsa

[Guest]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Amen, we should all be a FAR Nazi.

Sometimes all of us read between the lines and invent regulations that aren't there or miss some important point.

I've done both.

I love this new online FAR version the FAA has now.

Dave

[fearofpavement]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

How I would treat the nav light issue on a t-craft as an IA is that if there is a switch but the lights are not hooked up, the switch/nav lights should be placarded as inoperative. If there is no switch (the most common scenario) no action is required. To put a placard somewhere on the panel for a never completed installation to me seems silly.

Regarding the IA vs owner/operator issue, I think many owners have no idea how much of the airworthiness burden is placed on their back. An annual inspection is essentially a process determining the aircraft conforms to the type certificate. It does not necessarily ensure airworthiness as many aircraft are signed off in an unairworthy condition. The annual has been successfully completed and an A&P can later sign off the unairworthy items to return the plane to service. Just because your aircraft came through an annual last week does not insure your transponder and altimeter have had their required inspections and so forth. This responsibility is the owner/operator's. As an owner it is your responsibilty to know the applicable parts of the regulations. Many mechanics take on a lot of this responsibility for their customers and if they do, appreciate them for it.

[ClipWing_T]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

A lot of us are lucky to have AI's who are familiar with our tube and
fabric airplanes. Because of liability and lawyers and no experience
with older planes the future doesn't look bright for 60-70 year old
airplanes. It is easier for a lot of the mechanics just to say no IMO.
Or make you jump the the FAA hoops to no end to keep himself covered.
Mike

[flyguy]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

After some of my joking comments and perhaps unfair criticism here I should say that almost all the inspectors that have checked my 4 aircraft in the past have cut me and the planes at least a reasonable amount of slack.

I always emphasize that I want them to concentrate on the things that might kill me or cause an incident that would damage the aircraft. I think they like that attitude. After that they can check out as much stuff that I normally take care of myself as they wish.

Were I cornered by the FAA about some item not documented properly or otherwise questionable, I already have in my mind the attitude that I would cover my inspectors by saying that either I had installed or replaced it after the inspection and the inspector didn't know anything about it. I have no intention to jeapordize a good guy's livelyhood just to avoid a personal reaming by the big boys.

Having said the above I still stand by my past statements that in my PERSONAL real-world experience inspectors are humans first and inspectors second and there are some really incompetent bozos out there, just as there are in any field. Just now only four specifically come to mind.
DC

[stormman]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

""now another mission. I am supposed to show him proof that my plane came from the factory with a wood floor""
OK so if you REALY want to please him put in a gell cell and a metal floor

[whake]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Buy an Airtex carpet, buy it by the yard and fit it yourself. The FAA does not seem to respect IA's judgement even tho he did his homework and passed the test. There is a big difference between an airliner and a Taylorcraft, but we seem to live by the same rules. The EAA light sport program is a move in the right direction, to bad the maintence program does not apply to our Taylorcrafts. I have owned six airplanes and delt with many IA's never had a problem or disagreement.

[taylorcraftbc65]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Gary,
I have been through ELP's VFR corridor several times. If you tell them that you are a non-electrical ship, they clear you for the corridor, which runs below the top of Ranger Peak, and over the east shore of the Rio Grande. That's how we go from the east and west sides of ELP.

I hate to jump back in on this thread, but to clear up some misunderstanding concerning required equipment in Class B and C airspace please review FAR 91.215. It states that if your aircraft didn't originally have an "engine driven" electrical system, or hasn't been subsequently refitted with an "engine driven" electrical system, you may operate within the 30 mile transponder ring of Class B airspace, without a transponder, as long as you remain clear (under the floor) of that airspace. To operate within Class B or C airspace you will need an operating transponder with an alitiude encoder. ATC can grant you permission to enter the B or C airspace without a transponder (good luck!) with prior notice. Also if you don't have nav lights and an anti-collision beacon or strobe you aren't legal to fly at night even if you don't have an electrical system...this subject was discussed here a couple of years ago with MUCH gusto, the archives probably contain the thread, if it didn't burn from the flames! ELP is Class C, you will need a transponder or prior permission.

Garry Crookham
N5112M
Tulsa

[PT13Pilot]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Had to jump in on this one too. I'm an IA too with my own 1 man shop and have seen both extremes of "maintenance". 2 years ago I met a man with a BC12D when working for a large shop in St Louis. Since I was always made fun of by the other mechanics there as "the redneck who likes old airplanes" they gave it to me to look at. Keep in mind it had been annualed 2 years previously by said shop by the DOM, no one else wanted to look at it. First thing I did was walk around it and noticed maybe 3 out of the probably 25 inspection rings on the wings had been cut and had covers, the rest had never been cut, and it was obvious the fabric was none too new. I looked at the logbooks and sure enough, it was covered 15 years ago. I told the DOM to order me 25 inspection covers to start with and walked over to the airplane with a fresh #11 exacto knife. I got about 3 cut when I was confronted by the DOM. We had words, and I kept cutting. Ended up, all 4 spars were rotten, and the left rear had 4 compression cracks, 2 disappeared behind the strut fitting doublers, and 2 ouboard of the strut fitting were 1/2 and over 1/2 way through the spar. Needless to say the boss and the owners were upset, but with ME!!!! I talked to the owner and showed him the spars and he turned white and asked what could be done. Long story short, my last day at that shop was spent loading that T-craft on a trailer and taking it with me. Replaced all 4 spars and recovered it for him.
On the nav light thing.........Same guy with the T-craft above called me about 6 months ago and said he found the nav lights for it in the garage. It had the origional wires in the wings and fuselage but like many, looked to have never been hooked to anything, and the mounts were there. I primed and painted them and put them on. The airplane looks better with them, than with just the flat places covered where they go, they're in the type cert, no worries.
And for owners, if you don't like your IA, find another one!!!! I see so many people complaining about their IA, yet they go back every year. Maybe another mechanic is a bit farther away, maybe it'll be a little more inconvenient, but you do have choices. I fly most of the airplanes I work on, so helping get an airplane back and forth for a good customer who's far away is just another freebie I offer to make it better for them. And if your mechanic won't tell/show you why he wants to replace something, call his bluff. I beat owners to that punch, I show them why I replace or fix anything and how it affects the airplane and their safety. I give them a box with the old stuff I replaced to show them it got done, and why. I would want to be treated that way if roles were reversed.
And on the reverse side, if I have a new customer, and something major comes up, I stop working untill I get approval to fix it. Not that surprise bill at the end with an extra $2000 dollars on it. If they don't want to fix it, they are more that welcome to take it elseware. I probably turn down 1/3 of the airplanes that are brought to me for a multitude of reasons.
Wow, where did all that come from? Guess this thread struck a nerve too!
Chris

[hangarb7]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Chris,

I got your posting to my e-mail and after reading it I wanted to see how far from me you were. I have met many an I/A but none ever with your healthly outlook.

You give me hope that someday I'll find a mechanic like you. Now, if somebody like you IS around Western PA and wants to travel to Rostraver FWQ, let me know...

Jack D
N44057

[Forrest Barber]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Bless you Chris for only two posts you did a great job. I think there may be hope for us yet! Please e-mail me direct sometime check out www.barberaircraft.com I presume you fly the PT-13 around a bit, hope to see you here sometime. A lot of them stop here enroute to many fly-ins, crewroom & shower helps too! Forrest

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Chris,
You got a brother named Steve down in Chesapeake VA? My IA is like you. He always says he makes the first flight in a plane he annuals (usually with the owner, but I would trust him with my plane any day alone too). He says if he isn't willing to fly it, it must have failed. I have BOXES of old parts we (note WE) have removed from my plane. First priority is safety, we don't fly till they are fixed. He then gives me a list of things I will probably want to address before the next annual (but not things he would fail it for), and last the "nice" list of things I might want to do that really have no safety impact but would make it much more pleasant to own the plane.
He always allows me to participate in the maintenance (and encourages it).

Like Chris said, if you don't like your IA, find another. I consider Steve to be a trusted friend more than my "mechanic". Sounds like if Steve ever retires (not likely) I should get with Chris and offer room and board at "The Beach" for a weekend after a Friday doing my annual. Not a bad deal to get paid for an annual AND get a weekend with the family on the Chesapeake as a bonus.
Hank