illegal to have nav lights???

[N74DV]

so my IA tells me today that it is illegal for me to have nav lights on my wings and beacon on my tail if there is no battery to power them. My Tcraft used to have a wind generator and battery many years ago. Those were removed but the lights and wiring stayed.

He wants to paint the lenses the same color as the wings or remove them and cover the mounting holes.

Is this true???! is is really illegal to have lights installed and no power system to illuminate them?

[lfries]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Been thru 19 annuals, 4 differnet IA's and no problems with my nav lights
that have no bulbs in them.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Not a good idea to torque off your maintenance guy with challenges to his authority (at least not where he will hear them), but it would be a great help to the rest of the tribe if he could quote the specific regulation he is talking about. I have lights and no power on both of my planes. I know another couple dozen planes with lights and no power. If we are illegal we need to know and take corrective action. If not, we need to know we are OK and aren't going to get hit on a ramp check.
Don't confront him, but please DO ask him to provide his reference "for the benefit of the uneducated masses" of friend you have.
Hank

[T.Taylor]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

I had quite a time convincing my PMI that the '46 BC12D was good to go with the nav lites, he tried three times to make me get a 337, then finally he paid me a visit and I showed him the service manual and TCDS and he let it go, then later I went with the strobe in the rudder with a 12 volt battery in the original position just in an attempt to keep from getting run-down from behind, everything sems to work fine now, T.O.

[crispy critter]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Some if not most t-crafts came off the showroom floor wired for nav lights that were not hooked up. It sounds like your IA is trying to find more and more things to charge you by the hour. Shit like this pisses me off!!!! Even if he could show justifiable cause to remove due to a regulation...what is it going to hurt to leave them alone? If he truely insist they be removed then place an "in-op" sticker on each lens and you should still be perfectly legal. Also,why does he think painting over them will make it legal...they are still there,still unhooked,and this would be considered vandalisum if anyone else painted them punishable by a felony charge!!!! Another thing,why does he thing removing the light housing will be any different??? The nav light mounts will still be made into the wingtips and rudder just like they were when it left the factory and the wires will still be inside the wings. Tell your IA to call me....I would like to have a chat with him.....however you might want to wait until after your annual is signed off this year and plan to take it elsewhere next year because he might not do it for you again. Sorry again but it is petty shit like this and others reasons why most of my buddies can't afford to fly.

[Garry Crookham]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Your IA is probably referring to FAR 91,213--Inoperative Instruments and Equipment, which can be confusing and subject to many interpretations. 91.213(d) allows operation with inop equipment if the inop items aren't required by type certification, AD, or type of flight operation being conducted----and the items are deactivated and placarded as inoperative.
If your nav light wires terminate at a switch, the switch is marked "inoperative", and there is a logbook entry by an appropriately rated person indicating the nav lights have been deactivated and placarded as inop, the requirements of 91,213 have been covered.
If your nav light wires terminate somewhere in the airframe, are secured in
an acceptable manner, and a logbook entry has been made indicating that action, the requirements, in my opinion have been satisfied.
I’m sure your IA is trying to ensure your aircraft is in an airworthy condition, per the FARs. You might discuss 91.213 with him and find out what his interpretation is.

Garry Crookham
N5112M
Tulsa
A&P/IA

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Keven, We got to get together. We have such different ways to express our feelings.
I know it would REEEEEALY make us feel SOOOOO much better to use your method (I'm NOT being sarcastic, I know from experience it DOES make me feel better, at least for a little while- oh the stories i could tell) but he may NEED this guy in the future and we need to be careful to teach BOZOS the right way to do their jobs, in a way that they think they figured it out themselves. I'm trying to be as diplomatic as possible, because I REALLY want to use your method.
Don't beat him up man. You don't want to torque of those who hold your future in their hands......... until you have to!
By the way, I'm not a betting person, but I would SURE bet he can't find the regulation.
Hank
Did I REALLY call that IA a "bozo"? I got to talk to my therapist.

[N74DV]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

well.... I need to be really nice to this guy.

It took me 4 months to locate an AP/IA who would annual a tube/fabric airplane out here. Tube/fabrc aircraft are not nearly as prominent out here as they are in other parts of the country.

If I tick this guy off I may lose my only source for an IA without having to fly the airplane to some distant part of the country.

I'll have to step lightly but I will bring it up when I go to the airport tomorrow.

He also wanted to remove my com antenna that is sticking out through the top of the fuse because there was no radio in the aircraft. I told him that would be less safe because I fly out of Class D airfields and if I use the handheld's antenna my range is decreased by at least a factor of 5. I told him I need the antenna to connect to my handheld so I can be in more clear contact with the towers around here to get traffic alerts so I don't smack into another flying machine in our very crowded Phoenix airspace. I reminded him I have no xponder so hearing traffic is my next best defense. He agreed and said he'd "let that one go"

[N74DV]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

I just read over the FAR's regarding inop equipment. according to what I have pasted below so long as the lights are de-activated (in my case wiring terminated inside the wings and no battery/switch installed) then only a placard need be installed. right? although I have no idea where the placard goes as there is no nav light switch on the panel.

------------------


(d) Except for operations conducted in accordance with paragraph (a) or (c) of this section, a person may takeoff an aircraft in operations conducted under this part with inoperative instruments and equipment without an approved Minimum Equipment List provided --

(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are --

(ii) Deactivated and placarded "Inoperative." If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter;

[Garry Crookham]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Geez guys,
It's obvious you don't have a feel for the responsibility and liability an IA assumes when he, or she, signs his name in your logbooks. Most of us Bozos are just attempting to do a good job and stay out of trouble. I guess if I resided in Eastbumf**k, Iraq and were never visited by the FAA, my attitude might be somewhat different, but the Feds visit us very frequently and that's ok, my PMI is a nice guy, but one of the conditions of employment for him is to follow the rules. So my torque wrenches have current calibration stickers, logbook entries are current and correct, and I know when to keep my mouth shut. Unfortunately it's a much different aviation world in 2007 vs. what we could do, and were held responsible for in 1969.
I kinda resent the implication that A&P's and IA's look for ways to pad the bill. I cannot remember the last time I charged the owner of a Tcraft or Cub, or Champ for helping them. I make more money for one hour of work on a Bonanza or 421 or AT-6 than I could ever collect from a "grass roots" pilot, and I consider myself a member of the "grass roots" society being a Taylorcraft owner for over 30 years along with a Fly Baby, and being a second generation pilot and mechanic--my Dad was a corp. pilot and A&P and owned a Taylorcraft during my formative years.
And Hank, not meaning to pick on you and not wanting to stir the pot, but I'm also a CFI and each time I conduct a flight review I ask the pilot performing the review to tell me what regulations he or she should know that pertain to the responsibilites a pilot or owner have in regard to maintenance activities. Want to guess how many pilots can answer that question? Try 91.405 for a start, you will find inop equipment mentioned there.
Sorry to jump on the soapbox but it's getting harder to find someone to take care of our little airplanes and the attitudes displayed here don't help.

Rant off

Garry Crookham
N5112M
Tulsa
A&P/IA/CFI

[Garry Crookham]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

DJ
If the wires are secure and there is an entry in the logbook, a simple placard somewhere on the instrument panel stating "Nav lights inoperative" should cover the situation.
Your com antenna should be no problem. Lots of aircraft have a spare com antenna installed for use with a handheld in case of emergency...see them on Lears and Citations all the time.

Garry Crookham

[crispy critter]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Geez guys,
It's obvious you don't have a feel for the responsibility and liability an IA assumes when he, or she, signs his name in your logbooks. Most of us Bozos are just attempting to do a good job and stay out of trouble. I guess if I resided in Eastbumf**k, Iraq and were never visited by the FAA, my attitude might be somewhat different, but the Feds visit us very frequently and that's ok, my PMI is a nice guy, but one of the conditions of employment for him is to follow the rules. So my torque wrenches have current calibration stickers, logbook entries are current and correct, and I know when to keep my mouth shut. Unfortunately it's a much different aviation world in 2007 vs. what we could do, and were held responsible for in 1969.
I kinda resent the implication that A&P's and IA's look for ways to pad the bill. I cannot remember the last time I charged the owner of a Tcraft or Cub, or Champ for helping them. I make more money for one hour of work on a Bonanza or 421 or AT-6 than I could ever collect from a "grass roots" pilot, and I consider myself a member of the "grass roots" society being a Taylorcraft owner for over 30 years along with a Fly Baby, and being a second generation pilot and mechanic--my Dad was a corp. pilot and A&P and owned a Taylorcraft during my formative years.
And Hank, not meaning to pick on you and not wanting to stir the pot, but I'm also a CFI and each time I conduct a flight review I ask the pilot performing the review to tell me what regulations he or she should know that pertain to the responsibilites a pilot or owner have in regard to maintenance activities. Want to guess how many pilots can answer that question? Try 91.405 for a start, you will find inop equipment mentioned there.
Sorry to jump on the soapbox but it's getting harder to find someone to take care of our little airplanes and the attitudes displayed here don't help.

Rant off

Garry Crookham
N5112M
Tulsa
A&P/IA/CFI

Gary,
I do apoligize to you and anyone else who took my words offensive. Around here we are just far enough into the boonies of east ky where life is still very laid back and simple.However when you start jumping over to the next bigger airport where they have an IA then you start running into city folk with high demands,high performance birds,and too much bloody money. All the IA's within 100 miles will do your annual on whatever you fly weather they know anything about it or not.....but they also charge 60-80 bucks an hour and at least an hour minimum for each log book entry explaining any repairs.A friend of mine took his Champ to have it annualed and it cost him $1600 and there was nothing wrong with it and nothing repaired on it!!!! It also seems that people are more focused on money and there own self that they can't take a few minutes to help out someone less fortunate.
Anyway...I'm sorry for running mouth Gary...I really don't know that guy nor all the cercumstances that surround him. I just thank god that we have one really nice,honest,cheap IA here who is still all about helping people and enjoying what he does and the people he does it for.

[acbuilder]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

IAs or A&Ps padding the bill? Ridiculous! When was the last time you saw one of these guys charge a labor rate that was more than your local Ford or Toyota dealer? My local Toyota dealer gets $96.00 per hour!!!

Know the regulations you fly under and don't just take anyone's word that you are not in compliance. In fact politely challenge an FAA inspector with a counter argument and quote chapter and verse the FARs and they will respect you and leave you alone. One big discussion point is to ask them how this effects public safety it is a two seat aircraft that you obviously fly day VFR. They will go away and leave you alone. Just remember, according to the FAA "placards are your best friend". In case of off field landing scrape placards off panel and start signal fire

[hangarb7]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

Everybody is off the path now on this.

My BC12D apparently came from the factory with no electrical system and nav lights. I have an old picture somewhere showing it in original paint scheme with the lights.

If you can show him that it came from the factory that way, and that you want to keep it original, then compromise and offer to put inactive placards on (on the panel, I guess). BTW, my wires are tied up inside the wings and tail and there isn't even a switch to placard.

I just think he was uninformed and concerned how it would be considered if it were questioned in some way.

Jack D
N44057

[N74DV]

Re: illegal to have nav lights???

it's all taken care of. He will install a placard stating the nav lights are inop.

thanks for the feedback guys.

now another mission. I am supposed to show him proof that my plane came from the factory with a wood floor. I have carpet in it now and the carpet is not approved. I told him to leave the carpet out and just leave it be wood. said he'd need to see proof that they came that way from factory.