Adding turn and bank

[DannyDot]

I am looking for a good Taylorcraft. I found a recently restored BC-12D, but it doesn't have a turn and bank. Any inputs on putting in a turn and bank. I don't want to "ruin" the panel by putting in instruments that are not original to the plane, but I do want the turn and bank so I can keep the wings level if I get into a cloud by accident.

Danny Deger

[d.grimm]

Re: Adding turn and bank

I took mine out. I have a small venturi and a turn and bank instrument that works but cannot be overhauled. (radioactive paint) Would love to trade it for most anything.

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Adding turn and bank

I am looking for a good Taylorcraft. I found a recently restored BC-12D, but it doesn't have a turn and bank. Any inputs on putting in a turn and bank. I don't want to "ruin" the panel by putting in instruments that are not original to the plane, but I do want the turn and bank so I can keep the wings level if I get into a cloud by accident.

Danny Deger

Just buy a slip indicator and attach to the face of the panel. No holes to cut, no venturis to add.

Mike

[DannyDot]

Re: Adding turn and bank

The plane has a slip indicator, but you can not keep control of a plane in the clouds with only a slip indicator. I really want the turn-and-bank for emergency use to control the airplane without having a horizon reference.

I used to own a BC-12D with the 24 gallons of gas. I never had to use the turn and bank, but it comforted me to know if I lost my visual reference to the horizon, I could use the turn and bank to do a 180 degree turn, then the excellent range with all of the gas to get back to good weather.

I am not too concerned about the expense of adding the turn and bank. I am more concerned about "ruining" the panel as far as this plane being restored to look original. See this link to see if this panel would be degraded if I added a turn and bank.

http://www.barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?ID=148694&ReturnURL=%2FTaildragger%2C%2520Taylorcraft%2520Classifieds.html&PHPSESSID=10f9cfd7361072d8b8

Danny Deger

[fearofpavement]

Re: Adding turn and bank

If you want a turn and bank, cut the panel. It'll be your airplane and you can do what you want to with it. So you just need to decide if you want an original uncut panel or the turn and bank

[Robert Lees]

Re: Adding turn and bank

if I get into a cloud by accident

I suppose you could keep the original panel, Dan,and just prevent yourself from getting into (a) above

Neither of my two machines has a turn & slip..or even a slip ball...and I don't worry about doing a 180 to get out of cloud, because I don't let myself get there.

Depends on the weather where you fly, I suppose, but we have some cloudy weather here in England, and it's not too much an issue.

Rob

[DannyDot]

Re: Adding turn and bank

I have many, many hours flying cross country in VFR airplanes and never had to use a gyro to fly, but I always had a gyro to use if I needed one. In one case, the clouds I was under (with good visibility) started dumping rain on me and really clobbered the visibility. I was able to keep sight of the ground, did a 180 and flew back to good weather. I was in a trusty T-craft with its good fuel capacity. I knew I would find good weather before I ran out of gas My T-craft came through and I landed with no problem.

Danny Deger

[dedrekon]

Re: Adding turn and bank

Mine has a t&b....it's mounted where the left glove box was and has the small venturi. Nothing was cut, so it could be returned to original fairly easily (I have the glove box and door).
I've goofed with flying the TCraft under the hood and it's really not too bad. You hear what it's doing before you can see it on the instruments.

v

[DannyDot]

Re: Adding turn and bank

Thanks, I like this idea. I may buy this plane and put a turn and bank where the left glove box is.

I used to own a BC-12D with a turn and bank. I found it easy to fly under the hood. Very stable airplane.

I used to fly F-4Es in the Air Force and we would do partial panel "needle, ball, and airspeed" in the simulator. Much less stable in roll and harder to handle, but it could be done. My understanding is in the time of Lindberg a turn and bank indicator was all that was needed for IFR.

Danny Deger

[Jim Hartley]

Re: Adding turn and bank

I am looking for a good Taylorcraft. I found a recently restored BC-12D, but it doesn't have a turn and bank. Any inputs on putting in a turn and bank. I don't want to "ruin" the panel by putting in instruments that are not original to the plane, but I do want the turn and bank so I can keep the wings level if I get into a cloud by accident.

Danny Deger

Hi Danny! There is no excuse for getting in to clouds by accident!
Purchase a Garmin 196/296... GPS and fly under the hood with a pilot in the other seat watching for traffic...this is partial panel attitude instrument flying. Do not fly into IMC with the Garmin. If the signal from the satellites is lost and you have no gyros...you are a gonner! Russian Roulette comes to mind...!

My Taylorcraft had no inclinometer when I purchased it. I installed one! It is an important instrument. Some times a persons seat of their pants feeling is not always working well and another reference is in order. When you stall it is important that you are coordinated so as you pitch down straight ahead...no tendency to roll one way or the other... the inclinometer is invaluable as a reference to do just that...

Danny...Be safe!

Jim

[DannyDot]

Re: Adding turn and bank

I know there is no excuse to get into a situation you can't make out the horizon, but if you do you are dead without a turn and bank :-(

I have never had to use one, but I always felt better knowing I had one :-)

Danny Deger

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Adding turn and bank

Airspeed can be used as an inclinometer. Speed increases with down pitch, speed decreases in upward pitch. Slip indicator and compass is all that is needed to make a 180* turn. Practice with a copilot under a hood. Artificial horizons (which I think you might be referring to) would be nice except small ones require vaccum pump to run and artificial horizon's are not the same as a turn and bank. Turn and banks have no horizon reference and do not have 2 minute markings on the slip indicator, that is the arm in the top half of the instrument. Independant slip indicators have 2 minute turn markings on the slip indicator.

I have been caught in the clouds before but it was after dark and can be scary if your not prepared for it.

Mike

[mulwyk]

Re: Adding turn and bank

Danny:
I'd like to say a word for us restoration guys and for the Taylorcraft breed in general. Remember, you're looking at an antique airplane here. If you find one with an uncut, original panel...that's a rare, valuable thing, for goodness sake don't cut a big hole in it. When you buy a T-Craft that's been restored back to 1946 condition, you're taking on a responsibility to preserve it that way.

If you do aquire an original, restored Taylorcraft...but then you feel you just have to have a T&B, do like Vincent suggested and mount it in the glove box (save that glove box door!) Or remove the entire uncut panel and replace it with a "modified" panel. There's plenty of folks here that will want to buy the uncut panel from you.

The Taylorcraft is a wonderful old airplane, a real treasure, and I'd certainly encourage you to buy one. But, Danny, you're looking at a restored-to-original-condition antique and talking about cutting a hole in the panel. I just think you have the wrong idea.

[Brady]

Re: Adding turn and bank

Airspeed can be used as an inclinometer. Speed increases with down pitch, speed decreases in upward pitch. Slip indicator and compass is all that is needed to make a 180* turn.
Mike

Wrong.

A slip indicator will not allow to keep wings level or execute a turn in IMC. You can do a loop or a roll or a slip S right into the ground and never indicate a slip if the airplane stays coordinated.

I think the turn bank indicator is cheap insurance. I've never "flown into existing IMC" in a Taylorcraft, but on one occasion I had IMC (fog) literally form around my aircraft. The conditions were changing so rapidly, that I could not escape it. I was in my F-19 and luckily it has an artificial horizon. If it didn't, I don't think I'd be writing this. My F-21, though without an artificial horizon, has an electric turn and bank indicator.

I'm rarely contribute to this forum, but I'm no novice pilot. I'm not advocating for or against having the "turn and bank," just making sure that nobody thinks you can nescessarily survive in IMC with just a slip indicator.

[Jim Hartley]

Re: Adding turn and bank

The attitude instrument display of the Garmin,along with slip/skid indicator...also known as an inclinometer,will do what you want Danny, without cutting any holes.

I hope to purchase a Garmin in the near future and use the yoke mount.

Jim


I wanted to add that partial panel attitude instrument flying is a skill that must be honed and polished with a safety pilot on the look out for traffic. Many of us are aware of fatalities resulting from piloting deficiencies in this area.