Rear Fuselage fitting for EDO 1320’s

[TC747paul]

All
I am searching the archive for a drawing or direction to add EDO 1320 floats to my Prewar BC12-85. I see some good pictures and a few references to a drawing. Does anyone have the drawing or idea for obtaining the drawing. I have the 1320's and Tcraft rigging so looking to fly this coming summer
Thanks
paul

[PA1195]

Do a search and ===> https://vb.taylorcraft.org/forum/tay...ation-brackets The factory fitting bulletin is there. If it were me I'd install Atlee Dodge weld-on fittings (https://fadodge.com/weld-on-aft-float-fittings/)

Gary

[TC747paul]

Thanks for the help!! Is there a source for the clamp-on version or a drawing and specification for the clamp version? It appears to me 1/8” thick metal?? Thanks again for taking the time to help.
paul

[PA1195]

I've not seen a formal drawing. Forrest Barber (https://www.barberaircraft.com) may have further information. There is an informal factory drawing in the link. They may have just sold the part as is. The Atlee Dodge fitting is commonly fitted but might take a Field Approval from the FAA.

Gary

[3Dreaming]

I am not sure of the bolt size, but I am guessing it is a AN5. This would mean that the head is 1/2". For the metal to be 1/8" the thickness would be 1/4 the head flat to flat. I would guess that the metal is .063 from the picture, but that is just an educated guess.

[PA1195]

Look at the print PDF. The adjacent tubing cluster is probably sized relative to the fitting (?). Try taking the tubing OD and then size the fitting relative to them. Owner built parts for those that are now extinct. Here's two of mine plus rear longeron float cable pulley ears.

[PA1195]

Well then there's the question of whether the yellow brackets above are Taylorcraft sourced, fabricated later, or for another type aircraft. Same for mine above that are welded to the tubing. John H N96337 might know as he has commented on these matters before in other threads plus the one in #2 I linked. In reality many were just "done" as the factory may have been closed as was common. Atlee's are very nice but do require welding and approval maybe.

Edit: EDO's 1320 drawing and parts list: http://www.kenmoreairharbor.com/uplo...62/60-1320.pdf Note the clamp-on P/N 15 for the Taylorcraft.

Gary

[N96337]

Originally, there was just a tube up through the cluster there at an angle, and a bolt went up through it, for the rear strut . I'll see if I can get a picture of mine tomorrow.
John

[PA1195]

Maybe the factory ex-production option replaced the tube John has to make for easier field replacement. But, obviously EDO, along with Baumann, PK, Aqua floats made their own rear fittings. Some Taylorcrafts came with float fittings; others were added later. In the end they are the very best light weight low power floatplanes I've flown, considering cruising airspeed and lifting a load off the water. VG's help as well.

Gary

[Dick Smith]

Here is some info that may provide help:


An article by J Frey, a long time Edo guy:


Seaplanes operate in a complicated environment and present unique design problems.

I'm sure you have noticed the nose-up trim attitude of a seaplane (floats or hull) as it transitions from the displacement mode (low speed displacement buoyancy) onto the step. As planing speed increases, nose-up trim decreases until a compromise angle between wing and float lift and drag is reached to permit optimum takeoff distance.

During climb out, particularly for high powered aircraft, airplane nose-up trim will again increase to provide maximum rate or angle of climb.

While a seaplane may fly in a level attitude when cruising along, during high speed flight constant altitude is maintained with a nose-down trim attitude.

Why do these changes in trim angle occur, and what do they indicate? What must the designer consider when developing the configuration of a new seaplane?

Based upon experience backed by NACA tests referenced at the end of this article, the standard "V" shaped hull bottom with transverse step has an optimum planing angle of +8° in trim as measured at the keel (the float reference line of Figure 1). The term "optimum planing angle" really refers to that hull bottom attitude providing maximum dynamic (water impact) lift to drag ratio. A greater angle with the water surface results in increased hull drag, noticeable during seaplane takeoff when the stern drags and so increases the water run; and a lower angle of hull trim decreases hull lift with little reduction or possibly an increase in hull drag. As a result, the water supported part of any seaplane has a narrow-range trim angle of operation, as every water pilot should be well aware.

Once we have the hull shape and desired angle of water trim during takeoff established, it is necessary to get the seaplane into the air. Depending upon whether or not flaps are available for takeoff, the wing will provide maximum lift at an angle of attack of about +16° for our standard basic airfoil sections, and at an angle near +12° for wings equipped with single slotted flaps lowered 30°. (Angle of attack is the angle between the wing section chord line and the relative airflow over the wing.)

Let us consider the flapped wing design for this discussion. If the float or hull requires +8° for optimum operation while the wing must be set at +12° for maximum lift, it is obvious that the wing chord line must be positioned at +4° to the float reference line. If our wing section provides the lift required for cruise at a +2° angle of attack, the same angle between the wing chord line and the fuselage reference line would be considered to be a +2° angle of wing incidence as shown by Figure 2. However, as you will recall, we have a 4° angle between the wing chord line and the float or hull keel which is why seaplanes appear to be flying around on downhill floats, and why seaplanes without flaps appear to be flying more downhill than those with takeoff flap operation.

As speed is increased beyond the design cruising speed selected for the seaplane configuration, the wing angle of attack will decrease (because as speed increases the required lift coefficient decreases for a given airplane wing area and weight, while angle of attack also decreases with the lift coefficient). This results not only in a nose-down airplane trim attitude, but in increased negative trim of the floats or hull bottom as well. I'm sure everyone has seen this effect during a high speed pass of any seaplane,it may be flying level, but appears headed for the earth.

Floatplanes offer the best of two worlds...flying and boating...with the added freedom to go anywhere there is unrestricted water. Before a landplane can take to the water, however, serious consideration must be addressed that will allow it to perform with acceptance in both environments.

The floats must be strong, light weight and large enough to provide adequate buoyancy in the displacement phase of water operations. The shape of the floats must satisfy both hydrodynamic and aerodynamic considerations and permit the aircraft to move from displacement, over the hump, to a planing attitude, where less and less area is in contact with the water surface, allowing the floatplane to attain flying speed and become airborne.

An aircraft in the displacement mode must show good stability and have acceptable water handling characteristics. The FARs state that you must have a minimum of 80% reserve buoyancy. If we take a set of EDO 89-2000 floats as an example and keep in mind that 2000 is the fresh water displacement of the floats submerged, a pair of these floats is capable of supporting an aircraft with a gross weight of 2222 Ibs. An aircraft such as the Piper PA-18, which has a gross weight of 1760 pounds would have a reserve buoyancy of 47% (2000 x 2 -:- 1760 = 227% - 180% = 47%).

Other considerations in the displacement condition are the size and location of the water rudders. It is most important that the rudders be located as far aft as possible, in undisturbed, smooth water and below the after body of the keel.

The hump condition is where the floats transition between the displacement and planing phase of a takeoff. It is where the maximum overall drag occurs and places the greatest demand on propeller and engine.

The ability of a floatplane to reach optimum planing attitude, which occurs at approximately 20 mph, represents a great many considerations that took place when the floats were being approved. In most cases the floats are installed so that the center of buoyancy is positioned beneath the forward C.G. limits of the aircraft. Dave Thurston carefully reviews the relationship between wing and the floats, based on the assumption that optimum planing angle for the floats is 8 degrees on an undisturbed water surface (which will give us the minimum drag at the highest speed). The float angle of incidence relative to the aircraft horizontal reference line is approximately 3-5 degrees negative (floats nose down). The smaller angle is used with higher powered aircraft and the larger angle is for low powered aircraft such as the older Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs, which do not have flaps. Unfortunately, the angle of the float relative to the angle of incidence for the wing, that gives the best takeoff performance, may result in greater drag when the aircraft is in level flight.

Pitch stability and the use of elevator and trim are very important during the planing phase of the takeoff or landing. If pitch limits are exceeded, the aircraft can develop

a porpoise or oscillation which will increase in amplitude and become so violent the aircraft may be tossed out of the water. The limits of pitch stability are determined by the relationship between the forebody and afterbody during the planing condition. (The stern post angle can become very critical.)

Most EDO floats have approximately 8 degrees between high and low angle of porpoise and it should be remembered that as the trim angles decrease, due to higher loads and higher speeds, the force vectors will increase as the wetted area gets larger. Therefore, greater caution should be used when flying heavily loaded aircraft.

Once a floatplane gains forward speed, the floats have characteristics similar to a boat, but since you also want to leave the surface of the water and become airborne the float is designed to run on the deeper stage of its hull, just ahead of the step, to reduce friction and tolerate the increased angle that occurs when the aircraft rotates and breaks free from the water. During rotation the stern post angle must be adequate to allow the aft section of the floats to remain clear of the water surface, otherwise, drag is increased and the aircraft may be prevented from attaining proper angle of attack for the wing. Once airborne, many of the features that improved the water handling characteristics of the floats come back to haunt us. For example, the large area of the float that is now forward of the C.G. decreases the stability and in most cases, the seaplane must have additional fin area added to the rudder, or a vertical fin, to meet the FAR flight test requirements. (A recent article in a Government of Canada Air Safety Bulletin, traces a number of accidents involving PA-12 and similar model floatplanes to loss of directional control at low speeds due to a failure to install the auxiliary vertical fin.) The floats can also have an adverse affect on climb characteristics and a number of aircraft are limited with regard to maximum flap settings. Cessnas cannot meet the flight test balk landing requirements and are limited to a maximum of 30 degrees of flap. Limiting the flap, on the other hand, can improve loading characteristics by preventing a nose down attitude.

One of the most positive advantages we get when floats are installed on an aircraft, apart from added utility, is that it generally lowers the stall speed somewhere between 3 and 5 mph, depending on the gross weight of the aircraft. Lower stall speeds also means lower landing loads, which is why some aircraft can be licensed at higher gross weights when they are on floats.

As you can see, there are many parameters that must be considered before floats can be attached to a landplane. We recommend that you try to understand the basic principles at work in this process, in order to appreciate changes in the flight characteristics and handling of your aircraft when it is operated as a floatplane. Of particular importance, is the use of flaps, trim and elevator, as they relate to the above discussion and the manner in which you load your aircraft.

I trust that this simple explanation of basic seaplane design requirements helps to clarify why seaplanes look and fly as they do. Unfortunately, making them takeoff and fly as desired is usually not quite so simple.

Reference:

1. Hydrodynamic Investigation of a Series of Hull Models Suitable for Small Flying Boats and Amphibians; W.C. Hugh, Jr., and W.C. Axt, NACA Technical Note 2503, November 1951

2. Static Properties and Resistance Characteristics ot a Family of Seaplane Hulls Having Varying Length-Beam Ratio; Arthur W. Carter and David Woodward, NACA Technical Note 3119, January 1954

3. Amphibian Aircraft Design, D. B. Thur-ston, October 1976.

[PA1195]

Great info above Dick, thank you. I hope you're doing ok. It's going to be a long winter I fear. My Taylorcraft is buried in 3' of snow. I might just get it annulled this Spring and then leave i on floats as winter flying is tough stuff at my age 76 (birthday tomorrow).

Gary

[Dick Smith]

Gary, I left the plane on floats...it's sittinging on the trailer...out of the wind. My boys have kept it swept off! At 78, I'm using the same rationale as you!
I met Jay Frey at Oshkosh in 1992...my wife and I celebrated our 25th anniversary at the EAA gathering! This is year 56...you think she will go again?

The info by Jay Frey was a help to me in setting up my plane. Here is another bit I just pulled out of my files:
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Rigging floats to an aircraft


Float Installation:


Here' a formula for installing floats on "One of a Kind Aircraft/ Float combination.


"40% of the Beam Width is the distance the Step needs to be aft of the aircraft Center of Gravity".


Note: The Beam is the widest part of the individual float, (normally at the main compartment station)


I got this formula from EDO Engineering many years ago and have successfully been using it ever since.

5. Center the floats laterally under the aircraft.

6. Determine the A.O.A for your particular aircraft. (High power A/C normally

2-4 Deg.) and position the A/C accordingly.

7. Measure the struts and the Diagonals length from the Float attachment to

the fuselage float fittings) cut, drill, install.

8. Install front and rear cross wires.

9. Level A/C laterally with the cross wires.

10.Install, water rudder control / retraction wires.


_______________________________________

Following per Jay Frey:

The FARs state that you must have a minimum of 80% reserve buoyancy. If we take a set of EDO 89-2000 floats as an example and keep in mind that 2000 is the fresh water displacement of the floats submerged, a pair of these floats is capable of supporting an aircraft with a gross weight of 2222 Ibs. An aircraft such as the Piper PA-18, which has a gross weight of 1760 pounds would have a reserve buoyancy of 47% (2000 x 2 -:- 1760 = 227% - 180% = 47%).

[PA1195]

That's great info Dick on the rigging process. From your formula I guess we that use 1320's are out of extra reserve by 1465 GW, yet still meet the FAA's minimum of 80% at that weight. (1320 x 2/1465 = 180% - 180%). By then CG becomes important to maintain.

Gary

[TC747paul]

Thanks Dick for the information very helpful.
a few of questions to everyone
1. Does anyone have a drawing for the additional rudder under the tail described in the article
2. Does having a 85 hp engine change the formulas
3. If i understand the formula correctly 1460 is the highest gross that still meets the requirements with 1320 EDO
thanks again everyone, as usual extremely valuable information
Paul

[PA1195]

Have a look at the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the Taylorcraft BC series. Under Item 205 it specifies "Auxiliary fin (required on all models except BCS12D-85 and BCS12D-4-85). The Seaplane Gross Weight is limited to 1351# with the C-85 (factory installed or via STC SA1-210). The 1460# above is theoretical value.

Gary