Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

[Dick Smith]

Tribe, at our EAA meeting the other night, I was asked about the older-style trim mechanism as used on pre-war Taylorcrafts.
One of the members was down in Madras, Oregon at the Erickson Aircraft Museum

http://www.ericksoncollection.com/

and noticed a visiting 1941 Taylorcraft with the flipper postioned in an extreme angle, as compared to a horizontal, neutral plane. I was asked if that was required within the normal range of operation. I said I didn't know, as I've not flown with that style of trim mechanism. I'm sure that “max” trim setting would be required if one was flying at the limits of the envelope. Just how effective is the flipper style of trim? Do you get a lot of reaction to a “little bit” of trim adjustment? Where the flipper is somewhat different than the “servo” tab on my elevator, I was just wanting to know what you folks that have that style have to say about it. Thanks, Dick

[mike lutz]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

Hi Dick. I have a 40 with the flippers, and with extra stuff in the baggage and low on fuel you will have a fare amount of down trim. At least on my airplane. More than likely when exiting the airplane the pilot might have bumped it with his foot. I have done that before also. With this type of trim its no big deal if one would take off with it in a extreme condition of angle. (done that many times over the years). A though preflight will catch this before take off. Mine normally has alittle down trim at cruise. This style of trim works, however, the post war airplanes trim on the elevator is much more effective. Incidentally, the trim control handle is under the pilots left leg in front of the seat bottom on the vertical piece between the floor and the seat bottom. It sticks out around two and a half inches from the vertical panel.

[Robert Lees]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

The flipper-style trim was designed for the low-horsepower Taylorcraft (A50 etc). These aeroplanes only flew at 75-80 mph, and the flipper trim was effective at these speeds. But it was high-drag.

When CG Taylor added an extra 10 hp on the front end, closed the cowl, and it goes just a little bit faster, the aeroplane runs out of forward trim with that little flipper. Plus, it increased the drag at the square of the increase in speed.

This is why Taylorcraft then went with the elevator trim tab.

I've flown Mike Jones' BL65 with the flipper trim, and at cruise speed you always need a little "push" on the control column, even at full forward trim, to allow for the lack of trim area by the "flipper" at that speed.

Hope that helps,
Rob

[3Dreaming]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

My experience is the same as Rob's. On my BL the trim was either all the way nose up for landing with a glide of about 70, or all the way nose down for cruise with a speed of about 90. Any faster and you had to keep forward pressure on the control wheel.

[Dick Smith]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

Thanks for the response gentlemen. I will pass that info on to our EAA group. I recently counted 9 Taylorcrafts at the Soldotna Airport. I'm sure there will be some receptive ears. The gaggle ranges from 1939 to an F-21. Thanks again. Dick

It's definitely chilly here tonight!!

[M Jones]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

I've flown Mike Jones' BL65 with the flipper trim, and at cruise speed you always need a little "push" on the control column, even at full forward trim, to allow for the lack of trim area by the "flipper" at that speed.

My '39 was a BL50, but with an A-65 installed. No matter, really. Rob is right, a little "push" mostly, and when the header tank was getting low, I would have liked to have a third arm when cruising all day. There was a bunch of drag there. My '40 (BC65) has a better trim window and is much less tiring for some reason.

[mike lutz]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

If you would reduce the wash out slightly on both wings it will help some on the amount of forward pressure. You do need some wash out for good stall characteristic's, however on the flipper style trim airplanes you most likely will have to hold maybe a slight amount of pressure. On my 1940 t-craft it isn't a issue. However when light on fuel I have the trim all the way nose down in cruise, which puts the tabs on a pretty steep angle. Been flying it like that for 42 years and over 3000 hrs, no issues yet. LOL.

[PA1195]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

I think I'd add some washout to reduce forward control pressure in cruise. More washout (lower wing tip AOA than the wing root) = less overall wing lift and less tendency to climb at a given trim setting. CG affects trim of course in mysterious ways. Let's discuss this and see what's the best solution for the flipper trims.

Gary

[mike lutz]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

Gary, you are correct. In my post #7 I did in fact screw up. One would indeed add a little wash out. Got to thinking about it after I signed off and during supper got the book out and there it was. Just another occasion where my memory isn't what it used to be. Sorry about the miss info.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

You can't imagine how many professional aerodynamicists get that backwards. When i saw it, it hit me as,"is that backwards?", but I couldn't remember and probably should have looked it up.

Rest easy knowing you are in very educated company. ;-)

Hank

[PA1195]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

Hi Mike I was not trying to override your comments, just wondered why and how the trim might get overtasked to level the plane and require forward elevator. I'm not an engineer-math guy but did read some of this before posting (http://faculty.dwc.edu/sadraey/Chapt...l%20Design.pdf). Pitching moments and longitudinal dihedral...the math is beyond but the pictures help.

Eddie who posts here and lives near me has an early T-Craft 29544 that has the flippers. He hasn't mentioned forward pressure when he flies but does have lots of washout so maybe that's the answer after all. Previous owners probably set it up that way before he bought it.

Thanks for provoking some discussion and maybe it'll allow for some correction if the condition becomes a problem for some. I'll never have the time in a Taylorcraft many of you folks have.

Gary

[NC26528]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

My '40 seems to be OK with the flippers in cruise. That said, my airplane is pretty slow. I have some rig issues to work through, the cowl fit is horrible, and of course the little Lyc has not made an honest 65 HP since... Well, never.

For the kind of flying I do with it they are fine. And the quirky/unique/cool factor is priceless.

[PA1195]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

I wonder if adding a small fixed trim tab to the left elevator, like used on some rudders, would help offset extreme flipper trim angles and the reported forward elevator pressure sometimes needed? Bend it up away from the ground to slightly force the elevator down to reduce the AOA. Might offer a more neutral flipper position at speed, or give it a wider range of function. Might eliminate the need for excess washout as a similar correction.

Gary

[ERicter]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

Eddie who posts here and lives near me has an early T-Craft 29544 that has the flippers. He hasn't mentioned forward pressure when he flies but does have lots of washout so maybe that's the answer after all. Previous owners probably set it up that way before he bought it.

Thanks for provoking some discussion and maybe it'll allow for some correction if the condition becomes a problem for some. I'll never have the time in a Taylorcraft many of you folks have.

Gary[/QUOTE]

Dont feel worthy to offer my .01. Based on my experience, but it seems like i do not have a issue trimming it to fly hands off which is what i do all the time. I do like weight in the front in
the form of fuel;/ though. Last summer went Alaska bar hopping, (camping on sand bars), I was low on fuel with heavier load after a cross country and noticed it was quite different on landing, but not enough experience to put a label on it. I need to figure out how to put a sand bar landing on here, a nice short video, I think it would be enjoyed, I know I watch it all the time.
Eddie

[PA1195]

Re: Question re: "Flipper"-Style trim on pre-war Taylorcraft planes

Hi Eddie...maybe try posting a link to a YouTube vid? They offer a guide on how to join that site and create a show. Might be restrictions here but I think just a link to your video would suffice. Vimeo is another vid source but again I'm ignorant for a good reason.

Gonna' be -45-50F next few days so any entertainment would be welcome. Hope your working inside now.

Gary