I LOVE Handpropping

[runon]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

I tested the Fuel off to see how long it takes to exhaust all fuel remaining fuel and shut down...... It's a little while, probably 30 seconds or more off idle (about 1000 rpm). It would be nice if there was some sort of mag lanyard, but so far I haven't been able to string something up that would work. Next test will be how much throttle it takes to get over my chocks. I'll get video and post my findings when I do. I'm thinking I'll have tire pressure around 22psi - is this correct?

[Mark Julicher]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

22 psi is fine.
Service manual calls for 20 psi on BC12-D Too much pressure gets bouncy and sometimes twitchy, to little pressure gets wiggly squirrely

[blakecarl]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

...The Dawn Patrol guys in Kansas City used chain saw engines for a while and I think most have converted to electric drill motors now and use 12 and 18V battery packs to start. I want to figure out a way to use them to start our engines. If a drill motor can start a VW it should be a breeze for a Continental 65. Just got to figure out how to get the torque to the crank without ruining the nose bowl.

Hank

I ran across a system several years ago that uses an electric drill.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

A few minor problems with the system (and I sure hope I am not stomping any Tribe toes here).

First, we need something that fits INSIDE the cowl (which may be the biggest problem, there just isn't enough room in the stock 65 cowl)

Second, we need something that looks a bit more professional (sorry, but that thing really looks like something the kid next door banged out in the garage to start his go-cart)

Third, $1,850 for THAT! You have GOT to be kidding.

Parts of the "concept" look pretty good, but there is NO WAY I would stick that thing in my plane, even IF I could overlook blowing a hole in the top of my nose bowl, putting a ring gear exposed in front of the bowl, letting the ignition leads rub on the shaft on every start (COME ON MAN! AT LEAST TIE THE PLUG LEADS UP OUT OF THE WAY!) and although it DOES look simple to make, I wouldn't touch it, even on HIS plane. The cable to the bent piece of metal to pull the drill trigger and engage the gear looks like something lifted from a booby-trap zip gun. What is the screw driver tip on the drill for? Just in case he wants to take something apart? Anyone check with DeWALT about how they feel about their drill being used for this? Can it take the heat of an engine compartment? What if those two hardware store springs fail to pull the pinion gear back when the engine starts? Starter solenoids have gears specially designed to RELEASE when the ring gear becomes the drive gear and the pinion is being driven. Pump that drill up by spinning it with the engine and I bet you could get a really nice fire when those batteries overload. They are VERY SENSITIVE to charging volts and amps and a DC motor makes a really nice generator.

He actually got a STC on that? Maybe the designer or the people who approved it can chime in and reduce my fears that owner maintenance may be a really bad idea. It may work now, it may work for a while, it may cost you a LOT more than $1,850. I want to see some engineering info!

Hank

And I REALLY want to know who approved it for an STC at the FAA!

[Joe cooper]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

The fellow in the hangar next to me has one of these starters on his very nice Luscombe. He, like myself, does not " love to hand prop an airplane" (seen and read about too many calamities.) He has had it for over two years on his 65 hp engine. A charge on the hand drill battery seems to last about 20 starts. I have watched him start it innumerable times and it works fine. He is very satisfied with it and flys at least twice a week. The gear behind the prop is painted the same color as the cowling and is difficult to see unless your very close. He is a retired physics professor from Hopkins , over 70 and tired of struggling with a flooded engine or a cold one. He also owns a very nice stinson 108 and 3 Taylorcrafts in various stages of repair. He has a total of 9000 hours, many in gliders.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

My single greatest fear is the pinion NOT releasing and the drill overcharging and catching fire. It takes VERY LITTLE time for the batteries to catch fire if they are being over charged by a driven drill motor, and once burning are VERY difficult to put out. I DO NOT want anything like a NiMH battery fire in my engine compartment!

Hank

Not today, not tomorrow, but eventually. The guys in KC use drill motors for their starters BUT the battery is IN the COCKPIT where it is pulled after start and the electrical connections isolate the motor from the battery COMPLETELY as soon as you release the start button. The drill motor may burn up, but it doesn't start a HOT battery fire in the engine compartment. This idea isn't new, and can be made to work, but not the way it is in the pictures. At the VERY LEAST (if you don't mind tearing up your nose bowl) there needs to be a Diode in the line inside the drill to prevent the engine from charging the batteries and a switch to isolate the battery from the motor! I would not SIT in a plane with this system without at least being able to pull the battery and toss it out the window.

[cvavon]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

Hank the drill motor starter has a clutch like a pull type starter that when the engine starts it over runs the clutch and kicks it out of the flywheel

[crispy critter]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

Hank,
it works kinda like a lycoming starter, once it gains a little speed it will kick itself out. I'm not a big fan of this set up either but I have seen a couple of them work, I have even fabricated and installed one for a guy and it really does work much better then it looks. I also must admit that the one pictured is not the best looking in the world, I don't know how his works. I wish I had taken pictures if the one I did because it looks much more professional.

I used .040 to construct the main frame for the drill and I added a stiffener or two, then I powdercoated everything so that it matched the airplane, also my corners and edges are much neater and cleaner looking. The coupling you are referring to in the shaft is a actually a modified coupling that won't come loose from the drill or the shaft. The drill freewheels when not engauged. The flywheel is an eye-sore, nothing to do about that but when properly painted it doesn't stand out too bad until you get up close to the nose.

Personally I wouldn't put it on my airplane for any reason. The way I look at it, if I'm not physically or mentally able to safely hand prop a taylorcraft then I have no business flying anything, especially an airplane that requires hand propping. but that's just my own personal thoughts for me.

With that said, I have known and still know several folks who are exceptional pilots and all around great people who have no business getting near the prop of an airplane for anything other then a preflite. These type of folks have no business owning or flying a taylorcraft, cub, luscombe, etc that doesn't have a starter. There are also some our gents that are getting up in years that are still perfectly safe to fly, but due to age, mobility, minor handicaps, etc prevents them from safely hand propping. Arthritis affects many of us as we age, some worse then others, in our hands, feet, legs, ets. Any of these locations would rarely prevent us from comfortably or safely flying our aircraft, but might easily make it nearly impossible to safely or even physically prop it ourselves(such as the case of the guy I installed the above discussed starter for).

The guy I installed this starter for is in his early 70's, he still flies fine, he is in good health but has arthritis in his hands making it painful to swing the blade. He also had a hip and knee replacement and even thou he gets around better then he has in years, he still has some limited mobility that prevents him from being able to run or jump,etc. and feels that if you can easily jump out of the way in the event of a problem when hand propping then your not safe doing it.

Granted there are other options for starters on our taylorcrafts and most other hand propping birds. However other then this, there is no other optional STC that allows you to install a starter on a taylorcraft and remain light sport compliant. Many of us have gotten it approved on a field approval but that is for the 85,90,& 0200 engines that will accept a starter as a bolt on accessory. Not every one has the money or the means to install these bigger and much more expensive engines and even if you do, the application of a starter has to be done under a field approval to stay legally compliant for light sport and let's face it, a lot of our FSDO are getting pretty hard to deal with on such things and you may or may not be able to get it approved.

Once again, I don't like the mod personally for my own use, but I have installed one and if done correctly it is perfectly safe and works surprisingly well. I guess ya just need to look at it from both sides of the fence hank. Someday I hope we are all old enough to have issues hand propping but still be safe, healthy, and sane(or insane,lol)enough to continue flying.

[Joe cooper]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

A classic example of a person handicapped, unable to prop an airplane was an airline captain I knew who had MS. He flew for the airlines with it until it became advanced then he retired. He had a magnificent Luscombe with a 150 hp engine, and a trophy Stearman. Once in the cockpit , he was a very accomplished pilot. In later years his wife flew the Luscombe with him as the passenger. I think the wife still flys the Luscombe out of Tennessee, or she may have sold it. The ap who installed the drill starter for the doctor is 84 or so and has worked on small aircraft since he was young. Very capable and very savvy. The doctor has no mobility problems, is very sharp mentally and remembers, like I do, very sharp, experienced pilots who's hand propped airplanes got away from them. In most instances, it seems to happen when the engine is flooded, the person opens the throttle, pulls it thru, then forgets to retard the throttle when making it hot again to start it, a very high time older pilot did this locally in an aeronca champ a few years ago, it cut a perfect circle thru the side of a metal hangar, and ruined the front, engine , prop of the champ. Fortunately no one was killed or injured nor was another aircraft involved which is often the case. When I was starting out, most local pilots thought nothing of propping an aircraft and someone would always offer to prop you while you got inside. Today you can see by these posts that it has become a lost art and very very few people are capable or want to assist you. Nor should they. Being twenty and being 70 years old is a big difference in both caution and experience.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

This type of starter is definitely going on my project list, not the one that was shown here, but the same concept as the Dawn Patrol guys are using.

If any of you guys like it, that's fine, but just be really careful. I can't help but think there has to be a better way to solve some of the problems. I can still hand prop and actually really enjoy it, but there HAS to be a better, less expensive way to put a starter on. I won't be putting that STC on my plane. I doubt my A&P/IA would take me seriously if I showed it to them.

Hank

Don't hold your breath on my design. You guys know how slow I can be, but there could be a real acceleration if the need becomes acute!

[n6346m]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

I ran into a guy in Talkeetna over a year ago who has one of those in his BC12 and he just loves it. He is a little older than me and was tired of hand-propping by himself in the wilderness. The unit looked professionally made and installed and for him, whatever shortcomings it may have, it is still safer than what he was doing before. To each his own.
I certainly can see its usefulness on a floatplane. He told me that the guy who got the STC was trying to get a field approval from the Chicago FSDO (FAA central Region) and they thought it was such a safety improvement over hand-propping that they convinced him to get the STC and actually HELPED him do it.
The chances of failure of any of the components of this STC is probably a lot less than the chances of a 60 year old gear driven starter coming apart and filling the engine with metal. Remember, this thing went through the overly cautious and overly burdensome process of FAA certification, something that we know doesn't come easy. Even in Alaska, the FAA doesn't pencil-whip STCs.
I think that it's a better idea than the "accessory" pull starter cord (you know like your lawn mower or snowmobile) that was available in its day. A seaplane flying school on Lake Union in Washington had a fleet of Taylorcrafts with those pull starters in them. I doubt that many of then survive today.
My L2-B has a C90-12 with the starter and generator pads capped off. When I get to old or too tired to hand-prop I will install a (certified) B&C or other make lightweight starter and try for a field approval to power it with a DeWalt 18 volt battery removable from the cockpit, borrowing from this guy's great idea.

[runon]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

After this weekend, I can certainly see how someone could "accidentally" hand prop an airplane full throttle. I typically start mine on the idle stop and she behaves very well. I stopped in Hollister to see what their bathroom looked like and when I went back out to start her up I ... (shame on me) pulled a squirt (ok, ok, maybe two) of prime on a hot engine. I know I'm not supposed to, and after I did I though... hmmm I don't know why I did that. I typically run left to right, fuel off, push then pull the throttle all the way back, couple shots of prime, mags off... pulled a couple blades, fuel dripping from the carb (and the fact that she wouldn't start) = Flooded engine... Oh well, I'll let her set, eat my sack lunch, get a soda and watch all the scared first timers jump into the skydive plane. I set the throttle wide open (I don't know if this helps) and walked away for 15 minutes. I walked back to the plane, turned on the mags and started to step away from the door when I thought "something doesn't look right" (and I mean I BARELY caught it)... reached back in and pulled the throttle to idle stop. She started right up, and I had the tail tied down anyway, but I thought to myself "holy $#!t if that would've came to life like that she'd have definitely lurched forward quite a bit,maybe over the chocks and worse yet if she wasn't tied down at all what would have happened!!!"

Now I know there are probably a few of you that are shaking your heads and would like to set me straight, I know what I did wrong. I'm just sharing my mistake for the greater good. If it's so simple a monkey could do it, it's very easy to overlook as well.

[crispy critter]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

Keep in mind that most trained monkeys never forget,lol.....

[M Towsley]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

Glad it didn't turn ugly. Thanks for sharing a potentially embarassing moment.

Create a ritual and stick to it. No matter what.

Proper shutdown is to apply full throttle after shutting mags off to keep the carb from pulling fuel as it winds down. Then pull it right back. Another good reason, I was lucky enough to get one of Josh's new, bright red, throttle knobs several years ago. Very easy to see and confirm.

[wmfife]

Re: I LOVE Handpropping

My Dad had an 1947 Champ for 12 years. He was kind of proud of it having an "Armstrong" starter... i.e., started by hand.

The only thing he never had explained was, WHY was their a *click* every time we pulled it through... WHY did it make that SOUND...?

It was an *Impulse Magneto*. (...A *WHAT*...?)
Oh and it did seem bad to kick and run backwards before deciding to start. No one explained that either...

Never was any of this *theory* explained to my Dad...despite I had been taught "theory" courtesy of the U.S. Navy via "A" School Recip Mechanics... They never covered hand propping. So -

Long story short:
There were always willing helpers when it got too stubborn.
So the *man* with the strongest arms was the *winner*...

Don't mean to bore everyone.
But back then there was no internet.
At a small field, one- and two-word answers were often all you got to serious questions..