Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

[N96337]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

You have obviously not bought any TSO's Clevelands lately.....expect $3k or more for some models that fit Cessna's and Cub's, just for the wheels.....Tim

Well these aint Clevelands and we're not dealing with a 185. How about comparing apples to apples? If you look at Grove's site, you'll notice the Cub wheels/calipers are not quite so high... http://www.groveaircraft.com/28-4001-4002.html

Obviously you all have a bunch more expendable income than I do. I can't see where all this "value" is derived. I know what it is all about to obtain an STC (which he doesn't have), but in my mind the money isn't there in this installation. My opinion...obviously yours is different. For a couple grand difference, I don't mind filling out a 337. Like I said...MY opinion.

[cvavon]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

Mr grove and i worked together to get this field approved in 2010 and my field approval has been available ever since for free and it is posted on groves web site also back in 2012 he had a problem with people using his parts with out approval so he took the parts off the market and changed the part numbers SAME PARTS DIFFERENT PART NUMBER and started the process to TSOA these parts so to address Terrys statement about his being different only the numbers and you can go to the grove site and order a kit complete with master cylinders wheels and brakes the only thing you need to buy local is hoses for $2700.00 this will very with shipping this price came from a person that will take delivery of a kit this week in Florida.He said grove told him to down load MY 337 witch is field approved and reference 23-27 and send it to OK city.So this amounts to about $1800 dollars profit for Unnecessary paper and a few nut and bolts.And groves kit pins the master to the frame bracket for the first brake cable pulley and has a link that hooks to the brake peddle not a bunch of bolt on brackets and cables witch add weight to the plane.a much cleaner install.

[waltermrich]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

In my opinion you should be thankful for another offer for preserving these old airplanes, they are going to be dinosaurs eventually, anyone who buys , Terry's brake kit is preserving the longevity of Taylorcraft . You do not have to buy it, and Terry is doing a great job at getting legal issues of restorations and helping the little guy get his bird flying . Lay off some of you are such Curmudgeons .

[Guest]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

In my opinion you should be thankful for another offer for preserving these old airplanes, they are going to be dinosaurs eventually, anyone who buys , Terry's brake kit is preserving the longevity of Taylorcraft . You do not have to buy it, and Terry is doing a great job at getting legal issues of restorations and helping the little guy get his bird flying . Lay off some of you are such Curmudgeons .

Amen!

Election year nerves must be setting in.

[3Dreaming]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

Well these aint Clevelands and we're not dealing with a 185. How about comparing apples to apples? If you look at Grove's site, you'll notice the Cub wheels/calipers are not quite so high... http://www.groveaircraft.com/28-4001-4002.html

Obviously you all have a bunch more expendable income than I do. I can't see where all this "value" is derived. I know what it is all about to obtain an STC (which he doesn't have), but in my mind the money isn't there in this installation. My opinion...obviously yours is different. For a couple grand difference, I don't mind filling out a 337. Like I said...MY opinion.

If you want to compare apples to apples you need to remember that the Cub already has straight axles and hydraulics installed, where the Taylorcraft does not.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

It is a matter of choice. Want a turn key system? Don't mind spending the money to get it and just hand it to your mechanic to put on? Terry is probably your man.

Want to build it yourself and learn more about your plane in the process? Want to work with an A&P/IA and be able to say "I did that"? Get a copy of the STC (free on the Grove site) and do it up yourself while saving a few bucks.

I would probably be in the latter group, but that is just me. If my IA will let me do it, I am going to do it myself. I enjoy it. Most of his customers just want to write a check and get it done so they can go fly. Most couldn't grease a wheel bearing or change their own oil if their life depended on it. They will be calling Terry.

Arguing about it here is a wast of everyone's time. Make your choice and write your check.

Hank

By the way, I will be keeping my original cable brakes. But you all know I am a little nuts. ;-)

[barnstmr]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

So, my dear Taylorcraft friends, the price for these wheels and brakes is no doubt steep. I admit that. In fact, I cannot even afford a set for my plane yet. But I am saving up and hope to get that upgrade on our beloved N95598 in the near future. To the nay-sayers.... you are entitled to your opinion. To the resourceful DIY Taylorcraft owners... I applaud you for your efforts to stay in tune with the mechanical aspects of your plane. And if you can eek out a saved dollar here and there.... good for you.

I have to say that my whole business plan for Certified Aeronautical Products, LLC was never an intent to get rich. If that were the case, I am in the wrong line of work. I really and truly do LOVE antique airplanes and they are in my blood. I enjoy helping provide quality engineering and FAA certification paperwork to keep these sweet old birds in the air for years to come. And I especially strive to bring added safety into everything I touch. Anything less is not worthwhile and irresponsible.

I have never offered parts for sale until now. And I can say that I wasn't planning to do so with these Grove products. But there were two things that caused me to decide I should go forward to bring this kit to market.

1. The first CAP customer that came to me with the desire for my DER assistance to approve a set of Grove Brakes had a terrible battle with the effort to gather up all the piece parts together to have a complete installation parts list. It drove him crazy and I realized it would be helpful if someone offered a package deal with all the legwork already done.

2. But the real thing that convinced me this is needed was an experience I had with a CRACKED wheel on my own airplane. I realized this is a real safety issue that is not going to get better with time. Really it is not just a Taylorcraft issue.

I just posted a new posting about this topic on the Certified Aeronautical Products webpage. CLICK HERE TO SEE IT: http://dc65stc.blogspot.com/2016/06/vintage-wheels-how-long-will-they-last.html I encourage everyone to take a read. Whether you want to buy yourselves a set of new Grove TSO wheels or not. I URGE everyone to start paying closer attention to their wheels at annual inspection. They are aging like all of us are. Sooner or later they'll need to be retired.

[Guest]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

Good pictures and insight Terry, thanks.

You know it does make me wonder about this; Those races are tuff to remove from Shinn/Firestone wheels and as you said the hammer, screw driver, drift punch could do damage to the wheel when removing. In New York parked outside snow/water gets into the bearings each season and discolors the races. So I wonder if in the past I would have been better off by being less paranoid about race condition and changing them too much but rather should have put up with some race oxidation/discoloration. Perhaps I took more life off of the wheels than the race issue was really worth. Landing at 40 miles an hour may not stress the bearing that much.

Just a thought, your post/blog made me think about it.

Dave

[PA1195]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

There are claims that larger tires with lower inflation pressures can reduce loads on the wheel and landing gear assemblies. I assume that may pertain to both a linear and lateral mode.

Any thoughts on tire size and air pressure versus stress on ancient components?

Gary

[Mark Julicher]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

There are claims that larger tires with lower inflation pressures can reduce loads on the wheel and landing gear assemblies. I assume that may pertain to both a linear and lateral mode.

Any thoughts on tire size and air pressure versus stress on ancient components?

Gary

If you react 400 lbs through the tire to the axle, you still have a 400 lb load at the wheel bearing. The load is spread out at the tire footprint, but the axle is still a point load.

[PA1195]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

I agree (from my non-engineering perspective) that 400# through the tire to the axle and associated components is just that. However, the initial impact due to aircraft momentum versus what's then transferred should be less with larger softer tires or specialized shock absorbing equipment. At least that's been my impression and experience.

In the extreme skis and floats are particularly punishing to the gear and frame. Small (diameter and internal capacity) hard tires versus larger...which offers the smoothest roll over terrain? A low profile low air volume tire on a car or motorcycle will beat you up.

The reason I ask this is that the Grove wheel components may be capable of handling heavier loads and supporting larger tires that be operated at lower pressures (20 +-# versus 8# for example). The associated Grove brakes should perform better in slowing the bird.

Gary

[astjp2]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

In theory, yes, but when your 29" bushwheels stick like glue at only 5PSI, you can quickly shear the gear attach points off if the airplane has any major side load. Or go on its back if you land on pavement too fast...or hit the brakes and the tire does not slide but grips putting her on its back. There are a lot of factors when it comes to big tires and big brakes. My airplane only has single pucks and I can still lock up the tires on both gravel and pavement on 8.50's....and the debate will continue. Tim

If you react 400 lbs through the tire to the axle, you still have a 400 lb load at the wheel bearing. The load is spread out at the tire footprint, but the axle is still a point load.

[PA1195]

Re: Announcing: FAA-TSO Approved Grove Wheels & Brakes for Taylorcraft.

All good comments and that's why I asked about the preferred tire type for the OEM Shinn versus the new Grove wheels and brakes CAP is offering. I agree with Tim regarding very large (29-31") heavy low pressure tires on pavement. They can be aired-up to reduce contact area, but still do take some ground contact effort to initiate rotation. On grass or loose gravel it's less of a concern in my experience.

I feel that up to a reasonable tire size (mine are 26" tubeless and 19# ea.) having a large air cushion to slow and absorb the impact force through compression and reduce subsequent wear to the wheels, gear, and fuselage is a benefit. Larger than that and there are trade-offs for normal airport operations. Few if any off-airport pilots would choose a 6-7x6 tire today.

But if the consensus is larger than standard tires don't help reduce wear on airframe components then that's all there is to learn here.

Gary