Fuselage corrosion

[TimHicks]

When I got my fuselage back from the sandblaster, I thought that I was going to paint it and then start putting everything back together. But I didn't have to look at it very hard before I started seeing problems. Problems in the form of holes in the tubing and welds.
Now I've got a terrible feeling in my stomach that instead of being on my way to recovering, I'm now the owner of junk.

My AI looked at it and he put purple tape everywhere that needs repair.

He asked me to post this info on this forum to see if we could explore some options. He can replace tubing. But the more we looked, the more damage we found. He just doesn't have time to do this many repairs.

Any suggestions?

[mikerice]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

Wow Tim, that lower gear support tube is riddled with holes. Was the aircraft on floats at any time?

It seems to me that the worst problems are in the lower structure like if the tubes had water sitting inside them.

I would look for a shop that can do this type work as a normal part of their business. What looks scary to you is just a finite amount of cutting and welding to them.

The pinholes are easily repaired with a scab patch, but may be an indication of other adjacent weak spots. The lower cross brace has to be replaced for sure.

I heard there was a homemade Taylorcraft fuselage jig floating around somewhere. The factory has one, of course, in Brownsville, but I do not know if they would take on outside work of this nature.

I saw worse repaired in the factory jig, so it can be done.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

Scary to look at, but NOT junk. Like Mike said, it is just a lot of small repairs. There is less here to repair than my 45 had and she was bent up pretty badly with no fixture available. There are a lot of times when it is a lot easier to jig up the area and cut out a tube and weld a new one in. You can even weld in a whole new lower longeron and the advantage for you is this looks like it is corroded, but not bent, so you can make some pieces to hold things aligned while you cut out and weld in.
Don't get discouraged. Could be a great opportunity to learn some welding. I would much rather weld in winter anyway than in a 100* hangar in July. If you aren't comfortable doing the final welds yourself you can save a bunch of money by building the fixtures and doing the cutting and tacking for a pro to do the final welds.
Just find a good welder to give you some guidance and jump in.
Hank

[waltermrich]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

Im very curious to know the history of your aircraft, if you know it, it could be a lesson for a lot of us that havn't uncovered our fuselage ever or for many years.

[cvavon]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

Tim I don't know if he will do tcraft as he is a cub person but they did a pa/11 that was as bad as yours if not worse last winter he has a large jig for fuselages and has welders that come in that work for air tractor as there day job Pierce Aviation in Graham Tx his name is steve pierce phone is 940 549 6415 there are a lot of pix on suppercub.org this plane was the cub that the buck BR flew in the book flight of passage Criss nisson owns it now and is restoring it good luck OH it is not junk!!!!!!!! Chuck

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

I bought the 45 after stalking it for several years. It was one of those planes you see at grass strips sitting on a line with grass under it and flat tires. Not abandoned, but as close as it gets without a tree growing through it. The fabric was shot, the bungees stretched out and all the "glass" yellowed, but it was a Taylorcraft and I fell in love with it.

The fabric was shot, but there were no holes and tapping on the lower longerons with a screw driver let me know there were no huge holes (WRONG). I contacted the owner and he wouldn't let go of it. The airport was fairly close so I saw it often, and hated seeing it just sit there, so I started trimming the grass under it, put oil in the plug holes and pulled the prop through (poor mans pickle). I sealed up any holes, aired the tires and tied the gear together so it wouldn't drop if the bungees let go. I kept the mice out and made her presentable, just because I hated to see her die a slow death from neglect. Every six months or so I would call the owner to see if he was tired of paying tie downs yet. I never told him what I was doing with her, but evidently the airport manager told him some guy was coming out to tend to her and he asked me if it was me. After a couple of years he started to realize I loved her more than he did and we came to a price.

Now for the bad news. He said he would take her apart so I could transport her home and I said NOT to. It makes it a lot easier to put one together if you took her apart. Long story short, my parents came for a visit that week and I couldn't wait to show my dad the plane I had bought. We got to the airport and I was furious that the plane was all taken apart with the wings along side the fuselage. My dad said I stormed down the line to the plane so mad I couldn't see straight, especially when I saw the root ribs of both wings were damaged and the windshield was split. About that time my dad was telling me to calm down and look around. We were surrounded by wrecked planes I hadn't even looked at. Turns out the airport got hit by a small tornado or micro burst the day before and about a dozen planes were totaled. The airport owners Cub was one row over from the Taylorcraft and it's tiedowns (5 gal buckets of concrete buried about 3' deep) had been ripped out of the ground and he last saw his plane doing a slow vertical roll about 50' up before it came back down on it's back on top of a Cessna. My Taylorcraft had the tail tiedown break and did a slow tail rise that flipped her over on her back. The struts were buckled and the cabin roof was crushed down with the rudder and fin bent over. The nose bowl and lower cowl were pressed into the engine, Most of the wing ribs had the leading edges flattened.

The owner said that since we had not completed the deal he wouldn't hold me to it, but I had a pretty strong attachment by this time, so we renegotiated the price and I bought her anyway.

There is a LOT more story to her, but the part that applies here is the damage was a lot like yours to numerous tubes in addition to all the storm damage. I got a really good welder and some old steel bed frame. We made clamps to hold the tubes straight and in the right positions and started cutting out damaged tubes to replace them. After the storm damage was tacked back together we started cutting out corroded tubes and replacing them. When everything was DEAD STRAIGHT he did the final welds all over and I trammeled and straightened the fuselage the last time while he heated the joints. The pictures with the blue tubes are the 45 and it is as straight and solid as a factory new fuselage. There is a lot more interesting history on her and SOMEDAY she will fly again. She ended up having an interesting history that caused a lot of problems in the rebuild, which is why I bought the 41, FLYING. The 45 was a LOT worse off when I got her than yours is.

Oh yea, when I bought the 45 the owner made me sign a note saying he had first right of refusal if I ever sold her. He cried when he signed her over, and I understood. If I EVER let her go, he will be the first person I call, and I want to have him there when she flys again.

Hank

By the way, the paperwork showed her as a 46, but she is a 45 (ladies seem to lie about their age). That little white lie is what has dragged her restoration out for several decades. Whole new story.

[Guest]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

When I got my fuselage back from the sandblaster, I thought that I was going to paint it and then start putting everything back together. But I didn't have to look at it very hard before I started seeing problems. Problems in the form of holes in the tubing and welds.
Now I've got a terrible feeling in my stomach that instead of being on my way to recovering, I'm now the owner of junk.

My AI looked at it and he put purple tape everywhere that needs repair.

He asked me to post this info on this forum to see if we could explore some options. He can replace tubing. But the more we looked, the more damage we found. He just doesn't have time to do this many repairs.

Any suggestions?

Hi Tim,

If you have not done it already I suggest that you go over every tube with an awl and a hammer to "punch" test each tube for weakness.

You cannot rely on the sandblast process to locate the weak tubing.

It will only reveal the very worst. There may be other weak sections that did not blow through.

An ultrasonic thickness guage will also work for doing this.

Then you need to start replacing tubing and/or splicing tubing sections in.

It will be easier to do larger diameter tubing splices in many of the cases where only a portion of a tube is bad.

Dave

[TimHicks]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I'll give Steve Pierce (Graham, TX) a call. If anybody knows of other shops that might be qualified and interested in this job, especially if they are in the Gulf South region, please let me know.

Y'all asked about the history of the airplane. The more I get into it, the more mysterious it is. Last night, when we were looking for corrosion, we noticed for the first time that the serial number on the fuselage doesn't match the serial number in the logbooks. The logs say that this is a '46 BC-12D s.n. 9172. No record of ever being on floats. But also no record of wing or tail damage or replacement, but I have pre-war wings and pre-war horizontal tail surfaces. I forgot what the fuse s.n is. I'll find it tonight and report back.
My IA did use a hard, heavy, pointy awl to poke and prod. He made some of the holes bigger and found some that weren't apparent.

Another unusual thing is that both upper longerons, just ahead of the forward horizontal stabilizer attach points, are rotten on their bottoms. I thought it was unusual in that the upper longerons, not the lower ones, are bad (although it appears that the lower ones were replaced in the past). Also unsual in that these tubes slope towards the rear. So it doesn't seem that moisture would sit in that location.

[cvavon]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

Tim not unusual to have a mix bag of parts on tcraft my plane is ser#2000 1940 BL/T BUT it has 15 rib pre war wings and number on fuselage shows it is 1946 ser# also two hinge tail feathers and continental engine post war panel and pre war doors and trim is on elevator not flipper type as 1940 was but who cares it flies grate and will go threw a annual inspection with out any squaks and only the data tag denotes that it is 1940 ser#2000 and that makes it what it is so all the rest is just parts that make it look like a air plane put it back together and enjoy it

[barnstmr]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

Tim,
I know these recent findings must sicken your stomach. But you and your IA are showing yourselves and all of us the value in doing a thorough inspection. In the long run, you are saving lives and doing great things toward extending the life of your airplane. Don't be discouraged. It is called "good maintenance" and "doing things the right way". A capable repair shop can make this seemingly monumental task into a more routine job and can bring your fuselage back to life.

Thank you for posting these and showing the rest of us what can be lurking in the hidden places. This valuable information just may save someone.

[barnstmr]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

This points out something that we should all be more aware of and on the lookout for. As these airplanes are approaching 70 to 80 years of age, its is nearly impossible to know their histories. This airplane could have been hangared for nearly all its life. But it might not have taken much to trigger the onset of corrosion like we see on Tim's plane. Who knows. Just a couple of weeks/months of storage in adverse conditions could have started this decades ago.

Thats why it is so important that we all practice good stewardship of our projects awaiting a new owner or awaiting maintenance. Be aware of the environment when you store your airplane. I have seen many projects in the weeds under a makeshift shed. Those weeds attract moisture, critters, and other adverse conditions. Even dry storage can be adverse. Dust can accumulate and this will draw moisture right out of the air. Dirt daubers are a big problem in TX. Mice too. They seem to pee in the worst places. Galvanic action can start in some of the most peculiar ways. It does not take much exposure to cause the beginning of cancerous rust.

Again... Thanks Tim for highlighting our awareness of ths.

[Guest]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I'll give Steve Pierce (Graham, TX) a call. If anybody knows of other shops that might be qualified and interested in this job, especially if they are in the Gulf South region, please let me know.

Y'all asked about the history of the airplane. The more I get into it, the more mysterious it is. Last night, when we were looking for corrosion, we noticed for the first time that the serial number on the fuselage doesn't match the serial number in the logbooks. The logs say that this is a '46 BC-12D s.n. 9172. No record of ever being on floats. But also no record of wing or tail damage or replacement, but I have pre-war wings and pre-war horizontal tail surfaces. I forgot what the fuse s.n is. I'll find it tonight and report back.
My IA did use a hard, heavy, pointy awl to poke and prod. He made some of the holes bigger and found some that weren't apparent.

Another unusual thing is that both upper longerons, just ahead of the forward horizontal stabilizer attach points, are rotten on their bottoms. I thought it was unusual in that the upper longerons, not the lower ones, are bad (although it appears that the lower ones were replaced in the past). Also unsual in that these tubes slope towards the rear. So it doesn't seem that moisture would sit in that location.

That's expected. I have seen that before. The water accumulates at the lowest point of the chamber that it is in.

There is a chamber in front of the horz. stab. attach and also one behind it.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

We probably should take a tube drawing and highlight all of the trap areas. It would be a great guide for doing the ice pick probe test at annuals. There area lot of those trap areas that aren't obvious if you haven't cut a fuselage frame up.
Hank

[3Dreaming]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

It might be less expensive to buy a replacement fuselage than paying labor to do all the repairs. Just thought I would throw that out there.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Fuselage corrosion

If you can find one for a reasonable price. Like I said before, you can cut the cost a LOT on repairing this one if you do a lot of the work yourself. All you really need a really good welder for is to make the final welds, and that can be pretty cheap if you did a good prep job.

If you are looking for a replacement fuselage, at least use one of the same year as your paperwork! It will make the doors and all the small parts fit right without having to bash up the new fuselage. Pre-war and post war fuselages are DIFFERENT. If you have stick built wing ribs, they are PRE-WAR. What do the logs say?

Hank

By the way, the fuselage SN is NOT the aircraft SN. They mixed them up on the line and a lot of planes had the fuselage number off by several numbers.