TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

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I have followed the various discussions regarding upgrades from Shinn wheels and brakes with mild interest. The Shinn's on My BC-12D work fairly well. They have some rust pitting on the shoes and so go through a set of brake linings fairly quickly, but that is a minor annoyance. I really haven't been seriously looking to upgrade.

In all the discussions, the argument seems to boil down to - only the Shinns are on the TC and only the Shinns fit the tapered axles. All the discussions (unless I am missing something) are about upgrading to modern Cleveland wheels and brakes. I had never imagined another option.

I was just reading the A-696 type certificate for the BC12s and got a surprise! Down on page 10 under optional equipment items 202 and 207 are the listings for the regular Shinn/Firestone wheels and brakes that we all know and love.

202. Two main wheels, 6.00-6, Type III, Firestone 604
207. Two main wheel-brake assemblies, 6.00-6, Type III Firestone Model 6C3HB

But then at the top of the section, item 201 is:

201. Two main wheel-brake assemblies, 6.00-6, Type III
(a) Cleveland Aircraft Products Co. Model 6.00 DHB
Wheel assembly No. C-38500HMA
Brake assembly No. C-7000

The C38500 is the drum-brake wheel used on Pacers, Tri-Pacers, Champs, Stinsons, and a bunch of others. Taylorcraft 15/20s used them as did the F19 (according to their TCs). There are a number of variations reflected in the letters after the C-38500, but they are all the relatively common drum brakes used in the late 1940s and 1950s.

Searching the forum, I found a post by Robert Lees from August 2009 with a picture of the C-7000 brake shoes, but nowhere in the discussion was it mentioned that they were (possibly) used on BC12s.
Another post from December 2009 mentions getting Cleveland mechanical brakes from Univair, but given the discussions elsewhere, I assumed that this was an early field approval or something.

So it seems that the Cleveland wheels with mechanical drum brakes are on the BC12 type certificate. I understand that these wheels and brakes are also fairly dated and have their own problems, but the much wider market should at least support a few parts. Parker-Hanifin at least has drawings.

As I said above, I don't really want to upgrade my Shinns, but my curiosity has really been piqued.

Were the Clevelands ever on the BC12s as factory items?

I know about the tapered-axle problem with most conversions. The option list doesn't say anything that I can find about different gear leg assemblies. Did this Cleveland model somehow include bushings or something to work with the tapered axles?

It seems that being on the TC's approved options list one should be able to swap Shinns with the proper Clevelands. What would be involved if I happened to run into a set of the precise model number wheels and brakes off of a Pacer or a Champ and wanted to bolt them on?

Most curious, why doesn't this show up in any of the discussions of upgrades? Is this like the crazy Aunt locked in the upstairs bedroom that no one ever talks about? I would think that with all the discussion about replacing Shinns that SOMEONE would have tried this. Is there something so obvious that I am the only one missing it?

(just a second... runs over and reads the A696 TC again... There it is. Right there on page 10...) Or maybe I am misreading the part numbers or something... If I've missed something obvious, well that happens to me a lot. Let me know gently.

Thanks,
Skip
TF #895
N34237 BC12D-4-85 SN 7700

[Guest]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

Interesting...

I never noticed that Cleveland DHB item. I have a couple pitted shoes too but my linings have been on since 1982. I just don't find a need for the brakes. They were an option.

But... I have Cleveland DHB's on the champ I am rebuilding and I keep my eye open for spares. I occasionally find a brake assy. wheel, drum and so on.

A few folks have asked me about selling some of the spares becuase new part from Univair are unbelievebly high. For example $900 for a brake shoe.

I also notice on ebay that Mr Jones is selling NON-PMA Cleveland DMB parts at a reasonable price. However I don't recall seeing the wheels or drums.

Are you very certain that the wheel and brake assy are the same number as the pacers, champs...?

I ask because of that taper axle thing.

I do have t-craft axles and cleveland brakes/wheels in the garage I will see if the cleveland brake plate holes line up with the t-craft axle flange for the brake.

Dave

[Guest]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

I attempted to fit the cleveland hydraulic brake assy to the t-craft tapered axle flange plate as I said I would.

It does not fit: the bolt hole pattern does not match and the bolt diameters are different as well.

Dave

[astjp2]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

That is why everone has to use an adapter or get the straight axle gear. Tim

[skip]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

That is why everone has to use an adapter or get the straight axle gear. Tim

Which was the whole point of my question. There is only one axle (well, gear leg) on A-696 and there is no adaptor listed. The big problem with changing out the Shinns seems to be that any such adaptor or straight axle requires either an STC or a very heavy-weight field approval. This might give an easier route if we could locate the approved method used to add the Clevelands to A-696.

So how did the Cleveland wheel and brake get on the TC? There must be some factory drawing or spec or something that details a different axle or an adaptor that allows the use of the wheel and brake. If we had that information, isn't it the case that we would need nothing more than an owner-produced-part IAW the factory spec in order to replace the Shinns with the Cleveland? No STC or even field approval should be needed in that case. Just an IA doing a 337 IAW the TC. (If I understand the regulations correctly...)

Since no one seems to have done this, I am guessing that the information is not readily available. Does anyone have a hint about where we might look for the information?

Skip
TF #895
N34237 BC12D-4-85 SN 7700

[astjp2]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

Have you ever seen that wheel and brake? Its not a disc. I'll bet its the one used on the straight axle gear used on the newer ones (F-19). I will even bet there is a letter somewhere that allows the used of the newer gear on older airframes. Those wheels are over 3,000.00 each from parker last I checked. If you were following the TCDS, you dont need a 337, it would be a logbook entry only. I have a friend that has the straight gear on his BC12D and it was approved, I just dont remember how.

[3Dreaming]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

I don't have the old parts manual here ,but I seem to remember that the only replacement gear leg offered in the 70's and 80's for the "B" was the straight axle. I would guess this is where it came from. From what I remember and a quick glance the TC doesn't show what gear leg you have to have. If you had the gear legs and the wheels and brakes it would be an easy swap to put them on. Tom

[astjp2]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

Univair is the only current manufacturer of gear and they refuse to do a straight axle....Tim

[N-43121]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

I went to Cleveland wheels and hydraulic brakes years ago using a 337 field approval. This first version involved the use of an adapter sleeve which slipped over the tapered axle and allowed for the use of wheels designed for a straight axle. A few years later, I put a set of straight axle gear legs on that came from an F-19 Tcraft ... also with a 337.

[cvavon]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

WOW my whole grove brake conversion adapter wheels brakes lines scott masters and hardware and sign off from a/p ai was about 1700 and only gained 6# lbs total over the shinns and they will stop you when you want to

[TreeTopFlier]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

I talked to GROVE on the phone.....very helpful. They are working on an STC for the Taylocrafts but said it could be a year before it was submitted and approved. So they sent me a catalog and a copy of the 337 that was approved for N26658. (I am going to have my AI take a look) I would like to do the conversion some time next year. Thanks to everyone here for all the great info. ..................Don in SC

[matsuthunder200]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

Before i went with hydrolic brakes I had a set of the clevland drum brakes. I did have them on the newer f-19 gear legs. I could never realy get those brakes to work that good eather they had a lever
That the cable's attached and when you put tension onthe cable the lever turned a cog that spred the brake shoes I think the cog was wore out. Thy did seem to work better when i put a new set of shoe's on but still nothing like they should. Finaly i did find a place where i could buy a new set but at 900 bucks i figured the heck with it and did the hydrolic conversion.....

[cvavon]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

tree top flier if you need any more info on grove brakes feel free to call me will try to answer them phone # 931 306 9484 Chuck

[TreeTopFlier]

Re: TC A-696 Cleveland wheel and brake questions

Thanks : Chuck..............When I get into the conversion, (maybe next spring) I may have a question or two. I really will welcome your advice....

.............CAVU and ALWAYS keep your head on a swivel................Don in SC