Alcohol free gas!

[Bird]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

Hank, No offense here and I mean it-- I am really impressed with the amount of knowledge that you have, and that is no bullshit. I will always refer to you in most everything.
I am just wondering if you did the same thing I did when I was a kid--did you read the ingredents on the box of sugarpops when you was a kid like I did for breakfast reading?

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

Never really liked Sugar Pops much. I think the little Chipmunk on the box (Sugar Pops Pete) with the candy cane six shooter may have freaked me out a bit. I was more an omelet eater, but my mother used to say I was NEVER without a book. I would read the ingredients of any package on the table if a book wasn't available. I am still the same way (how many people do you know who actually DO have books in the John?).
I have a knack for remembering facts, which is funny because I am TERRIBLE at remembering names and putting them with faces. I just wish I remembered more RELEVANT facts. If life was trivial pursuit, I would be rich.
Hank

[T.Taylor]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

That sounds like a guy I work with that has a touch of Autism, I tell him a accident that happened near home, he tells me the date and N number????, if he ever worked on an airplane, he rattles off the engine serial #, etc, I needed to get thru a locked gate, I call him, he says he hasn't been thru there in several years, try this #, it works, I like that guy, Tom

[taylorcraftbc65]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

Some of the ultralight pilots in this area, (NO non alcohol available within 150 air miles, MUCH farther by road), add water to the gas, stir the water and gas together, the water attracts the Alcohol, they then let the water separate from the gas, and then remove the gas.
Brie

[M Towsley]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

Brie,

I have heard of them doing this by reading many other forums. They call it washing the gas. Not sure how well it would work but it would also drop their octane rating by doing so. If they are doing that to higher octane gas it proabably would not be a problem. If I remember correctly, Rotax allows up to 5% ethanol in some of their engines. I would have to research that again to verify, but none of us are using Rotax engines in the T-Craft.

[taylorcraftbc65]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

After spending two months eating Ramen three meals a day every day to pay for the damage that was done to my plane by mogas that was SUPPOSED to be alcohol free, and wasn't, I'm running the stuff. The octane of the fuel is a non issue on an engine designed to run on 71 octane.
I became a fan of it last week, when one of the ultralight pilots came over with 15 gallons of doctored fuel, we loaded 12 of it in the plane, and it flew FINE.
Two days ago, they brought me a "Processor" as they like to call them, so that I can make my own. They watched me mix up a batch in front of them, and I did just fine.
As soon as I finally finish the "T" hanger the Taylorcraft is supposed to go into, (It would have been done a month ago, except for the damage that had to be repaired), I will bring her home, and won't have to pay the 135 dollars a month for the hanger at T-27.
Brie

[M Towsley]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

Good for you, Brie. I always test every batch of fuel I buy via the local gas stations that still carry ethanol-free mogas. So far, everything has been good.

As a side note, I only mentioned the octane rating for your ultralight folks. Their engines are more octance sensitive than our little Continentals at 73 octane.

[taylorcraftbc65]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

Marty,
The thing that got me was that THIS was the fuel out of the pumps AT THE AIRPORT. It is supposed to be certified Alcohol free for aircraft use only.
Brie

[M Towsley]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

You would think, but I know mistakes can be made. My wife is, in a peripheral kind of way, involved in the motor fuel industry. It is definitely not unheard of that a driver will dump diesel on top of unleaded, etc. I would think you would have some kind of way to recover some of your losses because of the wrong product being dispensed. Have you checked into that? I also would think there were some federal standards violated due to it being incorreclty dispensed at an airport. Just my thoughs...

[Jim Lauden]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

I have been removeing the gas from the gas, water, entanol mixture mentioned. I would like to know how the ultralight pilots are removeing the gas? Thanks in advance. Jim

[flyguy]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

As the regular readers here know, I have been operating my 85 on what is available at the Chevron/Exon pumps, downtown, here in Calif., for about 2 years now. I assume you all know what that means considering how insanely "green" the bureaucratic establishment is here.

To put it conservatively, I have had nothing but unqualified success with the fuel. I attribute using it for correcting a 60 compression on one cylinder up to 76 in about a month and holding it for the two years. The fuel, along with some serious work on magnetos and ignition system, have resulted in an older engine that starts on one blade and runs as close to perfect as one could ask.

I must qualify all of the above by saying that I hate ethanol in gasoline as much as anyone. It is an economically unsuccessful attempt at green, heaped on the heads of a suffering public by the usual money grubbing lobbyist in our wonderful national and state capitols.

Nonetheless if a person is willing to go through the system and analyze, check, and replace the things that need it, the bugaboo monsters of engine killing lead deposits and dissolve-everything ethanol can be overcome to advantage.

Fortunately for me,tank sealer, one of the real baddies in my judgement, was absent from the main tank on my aircraft, so I didn't have to deal with that. The carb gaskets with sealer on them had to be replaced. Fuel lines are modern and OK. Steel needle valve good. Had to find some ethanol proof thread sealer (only one brand on market that I could find.) Gascolator seal was troublesome. So far no real problem with valve seals and the primer is holding up OK. Metal corrosion in tests I ran and in actual application have been zero problem.

I do think long term storage is a real problem with any type of gasoline, likely more so with the alky stuff as noted in this and other threads. So, I just don't intend to ever do that.

Thought I might add a little hopefully interesting balance to the discussion, so there you are; too many notes.
Darryl

[Jim Lauden]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

Hey brie, would ya care to reveal what the "processor" is that the ultralite pilots are useing? Jim

[Jim Lauden]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

TO ADD TO THE DISCUSSION--THIS FROM BACKCOUNTRY PILOT-- APPLIES TO TAYLORCRAFT AS WELL-- Vick wrote:
my Stinson my hourly fuel cost has more than doubled (largely due to ethanol in mogas forcing me to 100LL).




Myself and several others have posted on this subject previously, please forgive the repetition but it may make a big difference in this person's case.

Take the !($*%# ethanol out of the mogas.You will invest a little more of your own time, but your time has the potential to cut your fuel bill back in half as you mentioned. It's absolutely earth-shaking rocket science, and only those with a double master's degree in chemistry and nuclear physics can do this....

Put about 15 or 20% water into your mogas. Right from a garden hose. Mix it up really really well. Shake it, stir it, figure out some way to use a drill operated paint stirrer, drive over a really rough road... whatever. The water will absorb or chemically bond to the ethanol like a magnet. Then let the tank sit for a while, until the water and the mogas separate again. After some period of time, there will be two layers : The water-ethanol mixture on the bottom and the ethanol free mogas on the top.

Drain off this water-ethanol, and you are left with un-tested ethanol-free mogas that may meet your mogas STC after testing. Now all you have to do is test the gas for water (per common sense and FAR's) and for ethanol (to meet your STC). If you are using mogas that you tested and proved to be ethanol-free, I believe you are now complying with your STC and your insurance requirements.

The ethanol raised the octane rating of the mogas, and removing it will lower the final octane rating. So starting with premium grade ethanol-mogas will likely be necessary in order to arrive at mid-grade ethanol-free mogas. Please check on the minimum octane requirement for the Franklin because I don't know. The small Continentals are 73, but if your Franklin is 85 or something you might want to ask a real fuel expert what the octane of mogas is before they add ethanol.

Also, removing 5-8% ethanol from your gas means that you have lost 5-8% of the amount of usable fuel. However, you have still saved a very large chunk of money.

Your monetary investment will be a translucent white plastic fuel drum, a drain valve at the bottom (to remove the water-ethanol mixture), some way to mix the fuel, and some way to pump the fuel from the plastic tank into the airplane. INTERESTING. JIM

[Clyde Barker]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

...use a drill operated paint stirrer...

It may add a little excitement to the afternoon if the drill used has an unshielded electric motor.

Gasoline is a little more volatile than latex house paint!

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Alcohol free gas!

If you are even THINKING about doing a little amateur chemist work to "make" your own no-alcohol fuel I would like to make a suggestion. Do it for 1,000 mils or so on your car first (if your first thought was that you could ruin your cars engine, WALK AWAY from doing it to an airplane!)
If you screw this process up you could be making a mayday call (or might not have time for one). I won't endorse the process (not that that matters) but I can tell you, I will NEVER do it. If I screwed up ,the consequences are just too dire.
Hank
I am just glad I have a good supply of no alcohol fuel withing pushing distance from my hangar.