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N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

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  • #16
    Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

    I am pretty sure it was Ethanol free because the mogas has been there for several years. When I bought the plane in 2006, the previous owner had made a forced landing due to this stuff in the carburetor. I removed the carb, gascolator, and main fuel line in 2006 cleaned it all and flushed out the main fuel tank. (In hindsight... I did not consider that there could be stuff in the tank not passing through the finger strainer when flushed). I am pretty sure that the airplane sat for a couple of years with auto fuel before that time... so this stale fuel issue could go back to 2003 or 2004. I am not sure many gas stations around here had 10% ethanol that far back. So when I got the airplane back to my place I only put about 4 hours on it before I ended up having to park it due to other life priorities. The airplane then sat from 2006 until this year. Looking back, I think there was maybe 8 gallons in the tank... with half 100LL and half auto fuel mixture when it was parked on '06.

    So... In April this year when Doc, Mark, Buell, and I started to work on the airplane the first indication of bad fuel was when one of us removed the tank cap. The first thing to hit us was the awful smell of rotten fuel. Next, we noticed that the steel float rod was nearly rusted apart. There was also a lot of rust around the interior ID of the tank filler neck. Some of the shellac was indeed gone from the float (but not enough to cause the mess we found). The cork was not degraded.

    Again, the gascolator was removed and cleaned. Did not remove the carburetor, but checked screen and drained the bowl and did not find it to be dirty. Again, the tank was flushed several times with about 5 gallons. All of the bad fuel was removed and fresh 100LL has been used exclusively since then. I have a new cap/gauge from wag aero.

    So the day all of the additional contamination was found came after flying for approximately 8 hours. My conclusion is that the contaminant was mostly flakes of varnish from the rotten car gas. Some was probably shellac. And there is some rust, but not as much rust as varnish flakes. These flakes when dried out turn to powder or can poof away with the slightest breath of wind. I feel certain that we got most of this stuff out, but plan to continue watching the gascolator and to repeat the siphon (vacuum) process again in a few weeks. And I am keeping avgas in this airplane.

    By the way... when it was overhauled the upper cylinder parts were replaced with parts designed for low lead.
    Terry Bowden, formerly TF # 351
    CERTIFIED AERONAUTICAL PRODUCTS, LLC
    Consultant D.E.R. Powerplant inst'l & Engines
    Vintage D.E.R. Structures, Electrical, & Mechanical Systems
    BC12D, s/n 7898, N95598
    weblog: Barnstmr's Random Aeronautics
    [email protected]

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    • #17
      Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

      Mark

      What brand of carb cleaner?

      My Colt sat for about 6 years with non E Mogas as well.

      LOTs of varnish.

      Sloshing would not remove it so the tanks were replaced.

      Wal-mart brand would soften the stuff but not even close to removal.

      There are several types of carb cleaner around & some sound very corrosive.


      While the lead is an issue for small bore TCM's av-gas does store very well.

      A friend was salvaging a former Ashland refinery & discovered several hundred gallons of 100 LL.

      This facility had been shut down about 10 years earlier.

      The fuel was tested by the fuel lab & it was determined to be equal to new.

      It seems every fuel has a downside .

      Except 80/87?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

        Hmmm,
        I was not aware that carb cleaners could be corrosive. I will take that into consideration before I use it again.
        What I used to slosh my tank was Gumout in the pint cans. The tank was out of the plane at the time so I was able to rap on the walls of the tank and get many big flakes t fall out before I used the Gumout.
        Best Regards,
        Mark Julicher

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

          My tanks were also out.

          The Wal mart SPRAY carb cleaner loosened the varnish so I bought a dozen cans.

          That doesn't go far.

          I found some info that the big (gallon?) cans used a different formulation.

          Av & Mo gas, dope thinner, mineral spirits, enamel reducer & lacquer had little effect on the crud.

          Thought of the chain or stones & a "Positioner" but there is really no way to assure you"re not wearing through the tank.


          Didn't try acetone or MEK.

          There is probably some active ingredient in the spray carb cleaner that works.

          Some of this stuff gets pricey.

          So are tanks though.

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          • #20
            Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

            Anyone tried a radiator shop? Most around here also work fuel tanks and do steam cleaning. Not very expensive (if the tank is out), non-corrosive and doesn't wear the tank walls. Since most here really work more boats than cars or airplanes they are used to working with different metals (like Tern-Plate and brass) and working with old and/or corroded parts. They also usually have the inerting gas needed to safely repair leaks and the equipment to pressure test to low pressures without damaging a tank.
            Hank

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            • #21
              Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

              Radiator shops appear to have disappeared due to new materials & EPA.

              i'm sure some exist but not too many.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

                Lots of old boats in the Chesapeake Bay area so we have lots of radiator shops. I think some of them do more fuel tanks than radiators. I have one car with the new plastic radiator and the top of the tank failed. If you take care of them the old brass ones last forever.
                Hank

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

                  Benzene is the stuff that will cut the varnish. It is also the stuff that eats the tank, or causes corrosion. But if you don't leave it in very long, it shouldn't be a problem. I don't think you can get, and wouldn't want to use, straight benzene. But if you can find carb cleaner with benzene as one of the ingredients, it will work better than a cleaner without benzene. Be careful. Benzene is extremely toxic. You do not want to breath the fumes or get it on your hands.
                  Richard Pearson
                  N43381
                  Fort Worth, Texas

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

                    RP- Thanks

                    HOW do you know when it's just short of "too long"?

                    Leave in 1 hour, day or ?

                    Do you neutralize it afterward?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

                      Magman,

                      I honestly am not sure what would be considered "too long". You can wash it off with water, but be careful where you let that water go. The stuff is really really toxic. I am just guessing here, but I don't think having the stuff in your tank for an hour is going to hurt it. I think for the corrosive effects to work it has to have more than just a few hours. Maybe someone on the forum who was a mechanic in the military might be able to tell you more. I know the airforce uses it.
                      Richard Pearson
                      N43381
                      Fort Worth, Texas

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

                        Yours truly was in USAF & NYANG.

                        I don't recall "Benzene" by that name.

                        There was PS 661 ( min spirits) & Safety Solvent ( replaced Carbon Tet).

                        The F-100 was not quite Biplane Days but still some time ago.

                        Univair wanted $1100 each for USED tanks.

                        A GREAT deal came along so now I have spares.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

                          In 1986 the USAF was using benzene to help get a relite when F-16s would flame out. Twenty years ago you could get carb cleaner with it. You can still get carb cleaner with Benzene. I just don't think they are using as much now.
                          Last edited by Pearson; 10-15-2011, 16:00.
                          Richard Pearson
                          N43381
                          Fort Worth, Texas

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                          • #28
                            Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

                            The "relight"really interests me.

                            Is there a tank & a system to inject it?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

                              It appears that benzene is an ingredient of JP-8.

                              Somewhere I have some data on JP1 , 2 & 3.

                              Also an interesting 'relight" photo.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: N95598: Fuel Tank Surprising Discovery

                                I couldn't tell you about how the system works on the F-16. I only know about it because I was asking questions one day when they were doing an engine swap on one. I never flew it. Surely someone on here knows more about it than me .
                                Richard Pearson
                                N43381
                                Fort Worth, Texas

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