Flaps?

[cubby]

Re: Flaps?

Anyone have experience using a Taylorcraft with flaps for backcountry or off airport flying?

Were the flaps a worthwhile improvement in performance, or landing target consistency?

I have Flaps on my second Taylorcraft, my Model 19, didn,t have them, but my F22A ,does, there a deterent to floating, and thats about it ,the owners Manual says no flaps, for take off, in Emergency only ,which makes me think its possible the wing could be over stressed, with the 118 hp Lycoming,but i wouldn,t recomend them, with the out lay of time, and money, you,d have to pay,but to each his own ,i wish i had waited ,and bought another Model 19,i have a lot of money tied up in a nose wheel Taylorcraft,when i should have bought another tail wheel ,with out flaps ,i had 800 hours in my Model 19 ,the only thing you need to know ,make a slower approach ,with in saftey limits ,and it wont float ,Paul. ( cubby )

[PA1195]

Re: Flaps?

I've owned and flow both un-flapped and flapped versions of the same basic aircraft (Citabrias and Pipers). And have even survived un-flapped takeoffs and landings in others. They are not required for safe flight in aircraft with a low wing loading, and in fact can hinder takeoff performance in low powered aircraft if deployed too early and too much. The benefit of additional drag and lower deck angle can at times be helpful when landing in restricted areas while maintaining an adequate margin above the stall.

But there are times they can help with additional lift whenever their L/D is favorable to the former. Minimally deployed on floats or skis they can get the plane unstuck from glassy water or out of deep snow into ground effect. When slow flying and forward visibility is a concern they can offer a lower nose angle at the same lift.

I've yet to see a wind tunnel plot for an airfoil with and without flaps that didn't show some increase in both lift and drag...how and when they're used is up to the pilot.

Would I have flaps on my Taylorcraft? Yes if they were designed properly and didn't affect the airframe adversely. As mentioned by another earlier, I'd not give up my VG's as they do help de-tune the airfoil's stall behavior.

Gary

[astjp2]

Re: Flaps?

Naca did testing on the 23012 airfoil in the 1930's, the best flap is a 12% chord USA35b flap to limit pitching moment. I used to have all of the reports but not anymore. Flaps if not done right cause the airplane to nose over excessively.

[PA1195]

Re: Flaps?

Naca did testing on the 23012 airfoil in the 1930's, the best flap is a 12% chord USA35b flap to limit pitching moment. I used to have all of the reports but not anymore. Flaps if not done right cause the airplane to nose over excessively.

Helio Courier did it right with their slotted flap on the same airfoil. Same for Bill Diehl's Arctic Tern (now: http://www.interstateaircraft.com). Would it be worth adding Arctic Tern flaps to a Taylorcraft? Not without structural analysis and operational considerations with a smaller engine.

Removable Gurney flaps might be the simplest solution for additional lift in certain conditions. Edit for Gurney Flaps: http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Ma...A2007-4175.pdf There's more than a few aircraft with them installed "experimentally". Slower stall, more drag, less cruise speed. Might be ok if they were quickly removable via nut plates.

The Austers did well (I assume) with an external trailing edge flap and that might be another proven option.

Gary

[AeroCapture]

Re: Flaps?

If anyone is interested here, I have a set of F-22 flaps with most of the needed hardware to retro fit onto an earlier model.

- Lyle

[PA1195]

Re: Flaps?

Hi Lyle. How did taylorcraft support the flap's loads forward into the wing structure? Did they use compression bracing between the spars or any visible structural improvements? There is an experimental retro-fit here (Greg Clayton the skylight STC owner) but externally it looks similar to the aileron installation...internally ??? I've not asked him. It would take a major wing and airframe change to install but might be a fun project nonetheless.

I installed flaps on my C-90 PA-11 after flying it for a few without. Cost was $5000+ and the benefit on takeoff questionable. Unless deployed no more than 12* the additional drag hindered takeoff (there were three notches at 12/25/50*). I could land on a $0.10 but not takeoff in the same distance...unbalanced performance. They were nice for slow flight and on floats or in deep snow at times.

It's interesting to discuss flaps with Supercub owners. When asked if they ever leave them up for takeoff or landing I've been met with a deer-in-the headlights stare. I owned two PA-18's and rarely deployed them for takeoff unless the conditions required...maybe 4 mph difference in performance which is blown through with their power very quickly. They can increase rate of descent through increased drag nicely over obstacles or minimize ground roll on rough terrain.

Gary

[Robert Lees]

Re: Flaps?

The Austers did well (I assume) with an external trailing edge flap and that might be another proven option

Gary

You assume incorrectly, Gary, so go home and wash your mouth with soap, young man! Austers did well with nothing, apart from taking a good design and persuading the idiot British authorities to turn it into a military machine. For some reason that I cannot appreciate, there are some here in the UK loving of Austers. All the owners of them that I have met are all barking mad, so perhaps that's the attraction.

[Nefj40]

Re: Flaps?

I just installed VGs on my Tcraft today, it sure did change the stall. The air is rougher than heck so I didn't want to play around too much, but so far I'm impressed. The break seems softer? and it's somewhere down below 40 now. It's definitely going to chop some distance off the ground roll.

[PA1195]

Re: Flaps?

You assume incorrectly, Gary, so go home and wash your mouth with soap, young man! Austers did well with nothing, apart from taking a good design and persuading the idiot British authorities to turn it into a military machine. For some reason that I cannot appreciate, there are some here in the UK loving of Austers. All the owners of them that I have met are all barking mad, so perhaps that's the attraction.

Well Robert at age 70 I'm beyond an oral rinse of soap, especially in a Forum I presume is still open to opinion and discussion based upon experience and knowledge. Your attitude initially makes you appear to be one that might do well with the same, but having never flown an Auster or met an owner I can't confirm or deny your claim. There must have been a reason for them to augment that model with flaps, and perhaps their love of type has reason. Maybe you can elaborate on the basis for the modifications so we can all learn.

Gary

[PA1195]

Re: Flaps?

I just installed VGs on my Tcraft today, it sure did change the stall. The air is rougher than heck so I didn't want to play around too much, but so far I'm impressed. The break seems softer? and it's somewhere down below 40 now. It's definitely going to chop some distance off the ground roll.

Hi Dave. Yes they appear to soften the stall and help with slow flight roll control. I can link a reference to perhaps why there's a softening. It has to do with a leading edge discontinuity (airflow separation) for the airfoil with a 12% thickness ratio that forms above a certain AOA. If reduced there's the potential for a less abrupt loss of lift when the trailing edge discontinuity moves forward. Some theory supported by some fact.

I use them (had them on four planes before and after) as money on the bank...not to spend unless needed especially in gusty conditions.

Gary

[astjp2]

Re: Flaps?

We seem to be forgetting that NACA did tests with flaps on this airfoil, maybe someday I will look them up again, but its not so much a structural problem as it is with the massive changes in flight dynamics when you don't have the right combination. I remember from the report that the airfoil was having a sever pitching forward moment when flaps were introduced, causing the airplane to tip on its nose...more than other air foils. Tim

[M Towsley]

Re: Flaps?

The English designed and produced, (and named), some of the most beautiful aircraft around......except for the Auster. That is a pathetically ugly aircraft no matter how you look at it.

For your reading pleasure, until Rob responds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylorcraft_Auster

[PA1195]

Re: Flaps?

Thanks Marty I've read about them for years starting with my first Taylorcraft in 1974. Mainly looking for ideas on performance and modifications at that time. With any tool form follows function and I suspect that they were designed to fulfill a wartime role as an observation and ? aircraft. Whether or not and how well they fit the mission profile better than a plain Taylorcraft, I'd like to hear more. The sanity of their current owners remains a question.

There appears to be two main themes on this Forum...those that are here to restore and maintain, and those that enjoy flying in atypical circumstances and modifying accordingly. I'll not argue the merits of either just note them.

Gary

[PA1195]

Re: Flaps?

We seem to be forgetting that NACA did tests with flaps on this airfoil, maybe someday I will look them up again, but its not so much a structural problem as it is with the massive changes in flight dynamics when you don't have the right combination. I remember from the report that the airfoil was having a sever pitching forward moment when flaps were introduced, causing the airplane to tip on its nose...more than other air foils. Tim

More flap about flaps: http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-664.pdf Note the analogy for the plain flap to the effect of an aileron. However the Fowler flap did exhibit relative large pitching-moment coefficients relative to the others. Employing that design (similar to Cessna's) would require a flap track system and it's design and load complexities. They authors appear to favor a slotted flap over the other designs tested.

Gary

[Guest]

Re: Flaps?

Does this help?

Looks like it gets flakey at more than 30 degrees of flaps (ie 50 and 60 degrees).