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  • Cruise Speeds

    Cruise speeds, or why is my -85 so darn slow.

    I wonder about all these 100+ Mph cruise speeds talked about on the forum for 85 HP BC12's. I check mine all the time with a GPS and while it indicates a top of about 115 or a little more, it is really only doing 108. Cruise is down in the low 90's. Cruise at altitude (like 8000+) with full throttle (that I never use) is still slightly under 100 GPS.

    The indicator problem is the location of the static reference I am pretty sure. The stock static port is inside the left wing and while it gives dead on accuracy at low speeds near stall it gets more and more optimistic as one approaches cruise. Tried 3 different airspeed indicators including the new one in use now on the range variation. Same results. That isn't a problem for me, but I wonder if may be why everyone else is so much "faster" than I am.

    This is not unusual performance for just this aircraft, as the other two BC12's that I owned performed similarly considering their engines.

    Only thing unusual about this aircraft is the larger 8.00 tires. I can see that changing things 1 or 2 MPH, but not 10.

    I do notice that it cruises relatively fast at lower power settings. Around 80 MPH GPS at 2000 RPMs, for example. That implies to me that it is the WING BOSS, THE WING. Fantastic for climbing, but just too much excess lift for going fast. Prop is a metal 7146, pretty much a "standard" prop from my experience.

    Bottom line, how come everyone else is so much faster I keep wondering?

    Darryl

  • #2
    Re: Cruise Speeds

    Darryl, I would suggest that your tyres are indeed slowing you down more than you think...perhaps as much as 5mph. You can google for the aerodynamic drag of round things as opposed to streamlined things. Those extra few inches will make a difference.

    BUT I would suggest that your main error is in the static system. Try disconnecting your static. When I rebuilt my Taylorcraft, I religiously installed the static as you describe. The altimeter and ASI gave very erronious readings, so I "unplugged" it in the cabin, so that the instruments are open to cabin pressure.

    That's the way it's remained since.

    You could try putting a 50lb sack of sand in the baggage compartment; that improves cruise speed quite a bit.

    [Edit: 80mph at 2000rpm sounds about right. What's your speed at 2250rpm?]

    [Edit 2: I only get 120mph at redline (2575rpm), where the fuel burn is too high]
    Last edited by Robert Lees; 11-24-2010, 12:56.

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    • #3
      Re: Cruise Speeds

      As I say the airspeed indicator inaccuracy as the speed goes up is not a problem for me as I just proportion 8 MPH over the range and it is pretty obvious what my true airspeed is. It is accurate and repeatable at stall which is all I ask. To put a finer point on it, I wonder if a lot of folks are trusting that their indicated cruise speeds are accurate with the static port where it is? When I hear of 110 MPH cruise on floats it makes me wonder a bit.

      Using the cabin as a static reference spooks me a little though. I don't want my indicated stall speed to change 5 MPH depending on whether I have the window open or not.

      I'll dig out my numbers I recorded and see what I have for power settings.
      DC
      Last edited by flyguy; 11-25-2010, 00:28.

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      • #4
        Re: Cruise Speeds

        Flyguy, I find my speeds are about the same as yours, a little less, and I run 8.50 tires, 71-42 prop. Who ever claims 110 cruise on floats is full of B.S. they can fly to Surfside in MN and I will pay their gas for the round trip. I think MANY people are very optimistic about how fast their planes go no matter what they fly. Every annual we do we check the tach during the run up and it is not uncommon at all for the tach to be off by 25-50 RPM and sometimes 100. The only thachs that I have to be dead on are digital that run off of the maag or a whole new combo, tach, cable adapter etc. How far are you going anyways? Low and slow is what rag bags are all about anyways. I cruise at about 90MPH GPS at 2250 Digital with Baumann 1420 floats with the above mentioned prop. I indicate about 5MPH faster with my static port in the wing and an accurate ASI checked with a pitot static test box. You may be on to it with the wing rigging. I have to disagree with Rob about the tires though, I had 6.00 tires and then installed 8.50's and only noted a very small difference in speed maybe 1 to 2 mph at most, nowhere near 5mph.
        Last edited by T-Rex; 11-24-2010, 19:48.

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        • #5
          Re: Cruise Speeds

          I'm about the same on floats...both my C85 Tcraft with 71-42....and my C90 powered Tcraft with 76AK-2-40 cruise at 92 with Baumann BF1500's....GPS says between 89-93 on both planes....both run about 103-105 indicated on 7.50 wheels....That's pretty damn good though....my 65hp 41 BL12 cruises at about 87 with 74-45 McCauley. I think it's 74-45....maybe 72-45...I can't remember.

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          • #6
            Re: Cruise Speeds

            As far as cruise on floats goes that is good. 150 HP super cub 85-90 tops. 160 HP C-172 on EDO 2000 90-95. Baumanns are fast floats.

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            • #7
              Re: Cruise Speeds

              Now the numbers you guys are talking make sense. I just dug out my notes and found the following:

              2150 RPM Cruise 7146 prop: 89 average GPS, indicated 94. Down low. Edit correction that I will just add in here: more thorough checking shows my airspeed at 2150 to actually be about 85-86. Now the other speeds make more sense.

              2500 RPM full throttle 105 GPS, indicated 112.

              Somewhere I have a note that shows 108 GPS, 115 indicated, flat out, likely lower down than above.

              At 11,200 feet I got 2350 RPM, full throttle, 95 GPS avg. indicating 90. I would guess that is about 60 percent power. Took 27 minutes to get up there.

              I suppose at 8,000 or so I might get a cruise of maybe 98 at full throttle which I think would be about 75 percent. I believe I have checked that too. I need to check at 8,000 again as that number for full throttle is the most disappointing. You would think at that alititude the tail would come down some and the trim would be less and drag would be pretty much optimized vs max cruise power. Does look to be more efficient way up there over 10k when you get rid of some of the excess lift.

              I guess the bottom line is that the 85 is great for climb. I operate it like a 65 most of the time for sight seeing anyway.
              Thanks for the numbers guys.
              DC
              Last edited by flyguy; 11-30-2010, 21:53.

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              • #8
                Re: Cruise Speeds

                Just out of curiosity, how are you compensating for wind in your GPS readings?
                John
                New Yoke hub covers
                www.skyportservices.net

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                • #9
                  Re: Cruise Speeds

                  Wait for a dead calm day, then go opposite directions.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Cruise Speeds

                    Pretty close, know your local winds, calm day only, multi-directional runs to determine direction of wind at your altitude, runs into and away from wind, then cross check with runs 90 degrees to wind. Accuracy better than about two MPH is likely a figment of your imagination. Chuckle.
                    DC

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                    • #11
                      Re: Cruise Speeds

                      Fly 3 courses at 90 degrees to each other then go here to calculate TAS. If you fly compass headings (N,S,E,W) it'll also calculate the wind speed and direction.
                      John
                      New Yoke hub covers
                      www.skyportservices.net

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                      • #12
                        Re: Cruise Speeds

                        As mentioned above, fly 3-4 passes 90* form each other, then take an average. Have you checked your rigging? Proper rigging is worth mph and I always run minimal wash, no nore than 2*. Anymore and the induced drag goes way up. And I would say your prop is on the climb side for an 85.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Cruise Speeds

                          over 100 with floats is with the PW 450hp stc isn't it? JC

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                          • #14
                            Re: Cruise Speeds

                            Moved from "Drooped Ailerons."

                            Just now I am in the process of doing an analysis, with careful full flight testing, on the effects of wash-out adjustment changes on the all-around performance and behavior of my 12D-85.

                            I'll post the results when I have completed my testing, but I will tell you one thing I see already; Mr. Taylor sure designed the 12 for optimum cruise performance at the nominal 65 hp power setting. I mean DEAD on.

                            Should have more to say later this week, weather is shaping up again.
                            Darryl

                            Edit: one other thing, I am finding some of my previous "assumptions" about the way the long wing effects performance appear to be totally in error.
                            Last edited by flyguy; 11-30-2010, 21:58.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Cruise Speeds

                              Darryl
                              There was a NACA report written in the early 1950's about research test flights using a Taylorcraft by Texas A&M engineers. You can search for it on the internet. I have a copy somewhere. In that report, there were all kinds of configurations tested with varying amounts of wash-in / wash-out, also slats, slots, etc. You may be repeating work they already have done. Give it a google search and check it out.
                              Terry B.
                              Terry Bowden, formerly TF # 351
                              CERTIFIED AERONAUTICAL PRODUCTS, LLC
                              Consultant D.E.R. Powerplant inst'l & Engines
                              Vintage D.E.R. Structures, Electrical, & Mechanical Systems
                              BC12D, s/n 7898, N95598
                              weblog: Barnstmr's Random Aeronautics
                              [email protected]

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