What Wood?

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: What Wood?

Yea, mine was originally a BL-65 Deluxe built just about the time the war started. It was "obtained" by the government and used as a CAP patrol plane on the mid-Atlantic coast. During the war they took the Lycoming off and put a Continental on. After the war they sold it back into the civilian market.
Hank

[mulwyk]

Re: What Wood?

Most of the WWII CAP patrol pilots are gone now, but I bet they had some stories to tell. What an adventure that must have been!

[3Dreaming]

Re: What Wood?

Hank, I think all the deluxes were 1200 lb ships, so it would have been a BL12-65. They also built the 1150 lb ships with the flipper trim well into 1941. Since they were building both at the same time I bet there are fuselages with the pieces for both trim systerms installed.

[Carl E. Carson]

Re: What Wood?

An FYI item regarding WWII CAP members. It isn't a done deal yet but read the following:

WWII CAP members to receive Gold Medal from Congress. A bill (H.R. 5859) currently working its way through Congress aims to bestow the Congressional Gold Medal in honor of members of the Civil Air Patrol who served during WWII. CAP is gathering the names of members who were at least 18 years of age and served between Dec. 7, 1941, and August
15, 1945. The CAP asks that those with names of cadets who served during that time, which can include both living and deceased individuals, forward those names, contact information, (if for a deceased member a close relative or friend should send their contact information) to:

Civil Air Patrol Public Affairs
105 S. Hansell St.
Maxwell AFB, Ala. 36112

I'm doing this for my dad, I still have his CAP insignia, pix of plane, etc.

Carl

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: What Wood?

There are still a few around. Taking a Taylorcraft out over the water with a portable radio to call in a Cutter on a submarine doesn't sound that bad, except the sub commanders HATED them and would actually shoot at you with the 88mm deck gun! Shooting a 38 revolver out the window at a U-boat that is shooting back with machine guns and an 88 doesn't sound like a fair match.
I was told that the U-Boat commanders called them all "Die verdammten Pfeifer Bärenjunge" (Damned Piper Cubs) even though the Taylorcraft was supposed to be better at calling in a strike on a U-boat.
Slightly further east, I had a teacher in Jr. High who flew L-Birds in Europe and was credited with taking down a BF-109 from a Piper! He had a Thompson on board and the 109 made repeated passes at him but couldn't hit him. He said he was scared to death trying to jink away from the 109 firing the Thompson out the window (probably put more holes in his tail and wing than the German did).
They gave him credit for the "kill" because the 109 pilot got target fixation and flew into a hill. He had the Stars-N-Stripes article to prove it!
Hank

Taylorcraft, cheapest war bird you can buy!

[Mark Julicher]

Re: What Wood?

Shooting a 38 revolver out the window at a U-boat that is shooting back with machine guns and an 88 doesn't sound like a fair match.

Yes, but after the CAP started carrying 100 lb bombs and actually sank a sub, the game changed dramatically.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: What Wood?

WOW! I was always told that there was a lot of claims of subs sunk by light aircraft, but there was never one confirmed. The main contribution of the L-birds in the Mid Atlantic, outside of the great Newsreel stuff they provided, was that they kept the subs down to hide from the cutters. The news of the time would have you believe they were sinking subs daily, but the subs really hated the CAP planes because they were such a nuisance. They couldn't surface to ventilate and charge batteries since the planes would call in heavier coastal bombers or CG Cutters. The guys here said they envied the guys in the Caribbean because there you could actually SEE a sub underwater. It was a big secret and they didn't want the Germans to realize they could be seen from the air. A small plane could get a cutter right over the sub. Any more information on how the ones you heard about carried the bombs and the details on the sinking?
The Jr. High teacher said they used to put hand grenades in glass jars with the pins pulled. The jar held the lever down till the glass broke on impact. He said if you threw a few out over the German troops it REALLY pissed them off! It was a GREAT way to draw fire so the lurking P-47s could sweep in and tear them up.
Those guys were NUTS!
Hank

[Mark Julicher]

Re: What Wood?

Probably need to start a new thread !!!

http://history.nhq.cap.gov/

I first learned about CAP successfully attacking subs at the USAF Museum. I was a regular museum junkie when I was stationed at Wright Patt.

The website above has more good info

Here are a couple lifts from the CAP NHQ website as teasers...
Also a photo of a famous painting of a CAP attack on a sub.




From "Global Missions", by H.H. Arnold, Harper & Brothers Publishers, New York 1947_Pages 301-302
"One time, a C.A.P. pilot saw a submarine cruising inside the shallow water area, but the sub paid no attention to the harmless little plane overhead. The pilot said he flew low enough to throw a rock or a wrench and hit the submarine, yet the U-boat in shallow water went moving along just like a cabin cruiser. When it was ready, the sub went out through a gap in the shoals and sank a ship.
I asked Gill Wilson if he thought the C.A.P. pilots, dressed in civilian clothes and having no military status, would object to carrying bombs on their puddle-jumpers. As usual, Wilson was enthusiastic and asked, "Where do we get them?"
Accordingly, I had special bomb racks built at one of our depots bomb racks that could be attached to these small planes in a very short time. We also built a cheap bombsight, and thereafter most of the C.A.P. planes carried bombs-fifty pounders the pilots could drop on the submarines, knowing full well that if they were taken prisoner in civilian clothes, they would not be considered part of our armed forces, but guerillas.
Before the C.A.P. had finished their task in the war, they had flown more than twenty-f our million miles, mostly in single-engine, small land planes, well out over the ocean. They also performed other tasks. They flew courier service; they towed targets for antiaircraft batteries; they tracked for searchlight crews; and they flew sentry duty along the Mexican border looking for spies. They spotted forest fires and helped put them out; they were used in time of emergency when there were floods or other disasters; they located one lost plane after another in mountainous and wooded terrain. In addition to all this, they furnished a reservoir of cadets and enlisted men for the Army Air Forces. They did a magnificent job all through the war, and they did sink some submarines."

Robert E. Neprud, was a contract writer hired by the United States Air Force in 1947 to write the History_ of the Civil Air Patrol. His book, the "Flying Minutemen", is, and still remains, the definitive true wartime history of this organization.__ Bob Neprud, with an almost unlimited travel budget by being flown all around the USA by the USAF to meet with and gather reflections of CAP veterans, to record their recollections of what and when they did things. This, combined with CAP Wartime records and history still secured in CAP's National Headquarters at Bolling AFB, Washington D.C., his task, though formidable, was made easy by the availability of the first-hand eyewitness participants and the records available.__Now some sixty years later with most of the veterans having passing on, and with each and every move of National Headquarters causing tossing and destruction of priceless CAP records, it's very hard to uncover the facts in this day of absolutes. Moreover, combined with the reluctance of the Navy and the military to give credit where credit is due... they said vs. we said.

*But what is known is the following:
As a result of its effectiveness, the CAP Coastal Patrol passed its experimental or trial period with "flying" colors. The coastal patrol went on to serve its country for nearly 18 months (5 March 1942  31 August 1943), flying in good weather and bad, from dawn to dusk.
The 18-month record of the Coastal Patrol  all volunteer civilians, with little or no formal combat training  is most impressive: it began with three bases and was operating from 21 bases at the conclusion of the program. It had reported 173 U-boats sighted, sunk two, and had dropped a total of 83 bombs and depth charges upon 57 of these  with several other "probables." Its aircrews flew 86,865 missions over coastal waters for a total of 244,600 hours  which approximates to 24 million miles! The patrols summoned help for 91 ships in distress and for 363 survivors of submarine attacks. It sighted and reported 17 floating mines, and, at the request of the US Navy, flew 5,684 special convoy missions.
CAP Coastal Patrols impressive record, however, was not without cost. Twenty-six CAP aircrew members were killed, and seven were seriously injured on these missions. Of the aircraft, 90 were lost. But the impressive amassment of mission feats brought official recognition to many of the Patrols members. They were winners of Air Medals and War Department Awards for "Exceptional Civilian Service." These were merely tokens of the high esteem bestowed by a government representing a nation of grateful people.
*CAP Pamphlet 50-4, Headquarters Civil Air Patrol, Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6332

[Buell Powell]

Re: What Wood?

Carl,
My Dad was in the CAP for a short time. Dad didn't remember the date he joined but the CAP ID card has Maj. John F. Curry as the National Commander and he was only there from DEC. 1941 until March 1942 so may be I should contact them. Not sure but I believe Dad was working for Central Flying Service as an instructor for the War Training Service while he was in the CAP also and probably just helped train some of the pilots. In the War Training Program with Central Flying Service he instructed in Civilain Taylorcrafts for Primary-then mostly Wacos for aerobatic training and then the Air Core sent them 3 Staggerwing beaches and a Stinson Relient for Instrument training. At different times they also used others and even had a Fairchild 45 for a while. Then he joined the Air Core.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: What Wood?

Al Barber was one too! I have stuff in an old black box. I served for 20 years in the 60's & 70's. I will be looking, we did this before and I have pictures and even 8mm Movies of the CAP ships including a Taylorcraft or two.

[bkpatten]

Re: What Wood?

I used 1/4" fir ACX for my floor boards. It's light and strong. I can crawl around in my baggage compartment, and it supports my weight (133 lbs). I think 1/4" is called out in the Gilberti STC.

[FlyingMissDaisy]

Re: What Wood?

I am unfamiliar with the Gilberti STC is this the extended baggage STC?
Thanks
John

[barnstmr]

Re: What Wood?

It is the conversion from model BC or BC12D to BC12D-85 which includes engine upgrade, baggage mod, and gross weight increase. See link...

http://dc65stc.blogspot.com/2010/09/...ts-offers.html

[FlyingMissDaisy]

Re: What Wood?

Actually this old girl came into life in 1941 as a BL65 Deluxe
John