car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

[flyguy]

We have discussed this before here, but I have been checking with tanker drivers about how the ethanol gets in car gas out here where it is mandatory. I get the same answer with some minor variations: The ethanol and gasoline come from two different spigots and are not mixed before they go into the tanker.

It is therefore physically simple to get a tanker of car gas without the ethanol at the refinery. They probably would not let you have it right now in this state, but it is not because it is difficult to do.

Since 75% of the aircraft flying in the U.S. can use ethanol free car gas it would seem that that many owner/pilots should be able to put enough pressure in the right places to make it available. It would solve OUR problem without us having to wait for some pie-in-sky solution that is likely to cost twice as much per gallon.

Then hopefully at some point they would be able to find a hi-octane solution for the high compression set who actually burn most of the gas.

I guess expecting something that simple, cheap, doable, and practical might be asking too much.

By the way, my cylinder that was way down on compression is now 76/80 after running "special fuel" plus TCP additive this last year. No mechanical work was done on it. I had checked it as being good again myself much earlier in the year, and the engine was 76 all around at annual this past month.

[bashibazouk]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

Yup. That's asking way too much! I talked at length with Kent Misegades at the Suffolk Fly-In this year (between bolts of lightning and microbursts) about 100LL and GA. He said there is hope as he's been to Sweden recently and they've got a good, lead-free avgas sustitute there that they've been selling for years. The trouble is getting the refiners here to start blending it. It uses a different octane booster than what caused such a fuss here over the past few years in lieu of lead. http://www.hjelmco.com/ (MTBE). --->Actually, that's wrong. Hjelmco was experimenting with ETBE, but they've dropped that in their UL94. Their website has a good presentation on their fuels.

The other thing we talked about is just what you mentioned. Blendable Oxygenated Base (?) or BOB is what is shipped to the distribution centers via the pipeline. 87-88 octane which is "boosted" with ethanol to make the crap that eats our fuel systems and nullifies the STC's EAA and Petersen spent so much to get done. Nobody seems to acknowledge the existence of BOB. Seems like it would be a no-brainer for them to sell it to us, the lo-comp guys. Perhaps that's the problem. No brainers.

The other possible option is Marathon Oil's recreational fuel. 90-91 octane no-lead for boats. The trick is finding the stuff. I've had good luck recently with http://pure-gas.org/ in getting some 89 octane mogas. I bought a couple 55 gal drums and a pump and I'm in bid-ness. Be sure to call ahead as the stations are user-reported and may be out of date. Also, be sure to use an effective testing method to verify the absence of ethanol. Here are Petersen's instructions for doing that.
So far, none of the marinas near me seem to have a clue about the rec-fuel. It would probably be about as expensive as 100LL if I bought it there anyway.

It's not all doom and gloom. The talking heads will tell you the world is coming to an end, but what they forget is that part of what makes this nation great is that we're resilient. We find a way to cope and adapt. AOPA recently sent me a 100LL bulletin that was a thinly disguised solicitation for PAC funds. Okay, I'm happy to work to get 100LL substitutes approved, but when the same PAC money goes to lobbying for bizjets, I have a problem with that. In my feeble mind, what is often lacking in the popular media hysteria about "how our country is going straight down the crapper" is the proposition that you should accept that as fact and suspend individual thought and reason. Kent Misgades has a really good fuel blog at:
http://www.generalaviationnews.com/?cat=525

[Pearson]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

By the way, my cylinder that was way down on compression is now 76/80 after running "special fuel" plus TCP additive this last year. No mechanical work was done on it. I had checked it as being good again myself much earlier in the year, and the engine was 76 all around at annual this past month.

I would love to hear more about how you managed to get your compression up without doing any mechanical work on the engine. Where do you get this additive you mentioned?

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

Obviously you misunderstood about how Flyguy got his LAWNMOWER compression up. We would all like to hear what he used on his mower. None of us would use anything in our engines that the FAA hadn't approved of.
Hank

[Pearson]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

Oh Hank, to be sure? I wouldn't even use the stuff in my lawnmower until I had verified that it didn't cause any lasting harm. I am just curious how the stuff works. I could see something like this working if your rings were stuck. It would simply wash away the carbon that was holding the rings and voila, instant compression. Or if the rings were worn out, I could see how you could put something in that would thicken the oil and voila, instant compression.

But something in a can that removes the cylinder, hones the wall, and installs new rings??? Come on, aren't you all at least a LITTLE curious! I would STILL love to hear more about this.

[flyguy]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

My local shop replaced a cylinder for me because the compression was down in the mud. The cylinder that came off was completely coated with lead including a thick patch that had filled in over to the valve seats.

When another cylinder went low I figured it had the same problem and started using lead free fuel (that is all I can say as this is California,) and adding TCP, which is an old anti-lead compound that is available from Aircraft Spruce again.

We had quite a discussion on this forum before about a series of tests that I did of the effect of certain additives in certain fuels concerning things like metal corrosion, and the effects on various materials used in some fuel systems.

During that discussion one question was: will TCP remove any significant amount of lead from an already coated cylinder, or does it just work to prevent future deposits?

To my satisfaction I can now answer that question in the affirmative. Aside from the cylinder recovering it's compression we also found smaller lead oxide particles (you know that cat sand looking stuff) in the oil strainer, which I am guessing means the lead is coming off parts of the piston that come in contact with the crankcase oil, as well as the upper cylinder head.

I might also say that I have saved a considerable amount of money on fuel costs, that the engine bottom plugs rarely load up, the mags have about a 50 RPM drop on both, and for the last year the engine has been running really well. Needless to say I am a happy aviator.
Darryl

[Len Petterson]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

The no lead avgas from Hjelmco in Sweden has been certifed for use in Lyncoming engines for 20 + years. made in Sweden and sold in Scandinavia and Estonia. (;f
I know it works, I have 4 hr off use behind a O 360 180 Hp Cherroke in Sweden Back in 1987.
Look up Mr Hjelm's phonenumber and give him a call. He speaks excelent English.
Pilots are very carreful pepole, with good resons, sometime to carreful and it stops development!
Len

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

OK, had some funny outside messages to the wrong people so we will just do this in the open. I REALLY DO have a mower with compression problems. Who has the magic stuff and how do I get it?
For the FAA types listening in, it really IS my mower! My Continental is running fine. ;-) You are welcome to come check it any time (and if this stuff works in the mower I will let all know).
Hank

[Ron Coleman]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

Back in the years when car engines were really built like locomotives, there were additive fluids that could remedy engine problems. I mean way back. In the teens Studebaker ran their big car for 250,000 miles non stop day and night (except for gas, oil, water, and tires). I believe that they averaged over 60 mph. The next year ran the same car for another bunch of miles.

Most of the cars of the post WW1 era didn't do as well and most often needed a valve job in the 30 to 50 thousand miles, and rings not to long after that (except the sleeve valve engines and the like). Poor oils, bad crankcase ventilation, excessive lead in the gas (nobody changed the oil, it was too expensive) and usually no oil filters on the cars resulted in the engines loading up with carbon. The solution was any one of a variety of products that would break the bond of the carbon sticking the rings, binding the valve stems, packing the combustion chamber. The carbon would glow red hot causing detonation, prevent cooling of the valves, and prevents oil from flowing behind the rings (swells the rings out against the cylinder walls).

A 70 year veteran of Continental and Lycoming maintenance told me that his favorite product was "Casenite". He said that there were others that worked just as well. He also told me that the FAA must never know that you used it in airplane engines so he transfered the Casenite to oil cans so that there would not be any "bad" empties around the airport.

Up to the '60's it was not uncommon to find a neighborhood fogged out because someone was cleaning out an engine. You simply poured a quart of a compound that released the carbon ---and the lead-- into the carb while the engine was running. Often the engine would improve as you poured the stuff in. That stuff went away when the government figured out that it was dangerous to breathe.

Another product which would work near magic is Seafoam. Seafoam would clean your gas tank, fuel lines, carb, etc. However, It it appears that the formulation for Seafoam has been changed and it no longer is as effective as it once was.

If you ever discover an old can of engine cleaner that contains something like "phenocarbural" or any spelling like that, I would like to have it. Don't throw it out.

so there to!
RonC

[Bird]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

I know that I used some Marvel Mystery oil in a gas tank to "clean out a engine" once and yeah it did fog out the neighborhood, dunno if I would stick it in an aircraft though. Used 1 quart to 10 gallons of gas.
Hank if you use this Make sure you remain upwind and the neighbor you like the least is downwind.
And yes it did clean out the engine and got rid of alot of the pings that it had, hell I did that just 8 or 9 years ago to the wife's Olds.

[waltermrich]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

I had a Stinson 108-1 about 8 years ago and belonged to the Type club for about 5 years it was common amoung the Stinson owners to use Marvel Mystery oil , They claimed it would keep your engine clean keep it from building up with lead and help with valves from sticking , iwhen used in your oil , it was also mixed with gas in the tank, for carbs , I do not know how factual it might be but it has never hurt anything, I still use it,

[jim cooper]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

Absolutley! When I had the Stearman the mechanic who was old school, had worked on B-17's said...NO, I repeat NO 100 Octane! It will ruin the engine as its only 5.5 compression. Use Amaco high test and add 7-8 ounces MMO to each tank (40 Gallons.) This fellow , also a grad. of Emery Riddle after the big war, worked on all kinds of aircraft. His own, a pitts, a husky, Zlinn and later the Pitts he was killed in, he used MMO and claimed, when he tore down an engine using it, they were in much better shape. Don Swords on the other hand says no good! Do not use it. So......every once in a while I dump in 2-3 ounces just for instance. I also hear AvBlend is good.......Is It? JC

[VictorBravo]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

The subject of Marvel Oil has been discussed at length here previously. Probably car gas too. I have recently run car gas that was supposed to have no ethanol in it (O-300 engine), and it ran just fine.

However a very good friend who is actually a fuels chemist told me to try and avoid car gas if there is a choice between it and avgas. Apparently the car gas is simply a much better quality product.

I'm not above using a blend of car gas and avgas. That's a personal decision, which includes the fact that I have some amount of training and experience making off field landings.

The consensus on car gas seems to be that you can run it if there is no available better alternative... but you should run it immediately and do not leave it sitting in your airplane's system for weeks after you fly it. So there are logistical headaches associated with car gas. I've previously posted on the subject of "washing" the ethanol out with water, that is also a known phenomenon and might come in handy for some people. I also personally believe the ethanol is not good for airplane fuel systems. New Viton rubber seals and certain changes in the aircraft would make that problem go away.

As far as the Marvel Oil I'm a believer and use it often. Not that I'm some kind of supernatural knowledge guru, not that I'm a 40,000 hour pilot, not that I'm an engine technical expert... I ain't any of that. But I do personally believe in the Marvel Oil, even though I have it on good authority it is just a clever blend of thin oil, a solvent and color/perfume. I also believe in STP on old, tired, hard working engines from personal experience.

[bashibazouk]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

However a very good friend who is actually a fuels chemist told me to try and avoid car gas if there is a choice between it and avgas. Apparently the car gas is simply a much better quality product.

Bill,

did you mean that avgas is a better product?

Josh

[Carrieve]

Re: car gas, ethanol, lead, ect.

Up here in northern WI we have gas stations that advertise "Ethonol Free" fuel. All of our marinas have the corn free fuel. I use premium 94 octane corn free in my Tcraft and she loves it. She spits and sputters when we have to take on a load of 100LL. (I think it has something to do with her personality.) The plugs look great and the oil stays much cleaner between changes. I do carry the TCP and add it when I think of it when getting the 100LL.