Engine For Sale

[alwaysoar]

engine for sale

We have an instance here where someone exchanged an engine for an overhauled engine from a approved repair station, and the repair station kept the old logs, sent a new log, and would not turn over the work order. It is now due a 100-hour and the A&P won't sign it off without the logs. We're still waiting to find out what the IA will say.

Richard, Thank you for the picture and information. I am exploring one other option but I'm still intested in yours. If I do buy it, how do we get around the data plate issue?


Ed @BTV VT
TF 527

[Pearson]

Data Plate

Ed

As it turns out there IS a data plate on the case. I noticed it when I included the picture in my last post.

John thanks for your input. I was told something very different from what you said about the logs going with the rest of the engine. I was told that the logs go with the case. I guess it depends on who you talk to. I certainly don't know about this stuff.

Ed let me know if you want to talk about any of this on the phone. I am going camping this weekend for four days and will be out of cell phone range.

[alwaysoar]

engine

Richard,
There is a question then about logs:do you have logs for the "new" engine, or the old case? John, can you shed some more light on this?
I am trying to find out all I can, Richard, before I move on this. I recently got hosed pretty badly, my experience at the time and my fault for trusting the judgement of two IA's and the honesty of the seller, all of whom I know!
I'll get back after your camping trip. Also, is there a hub?

Ed@BTV VT
TF 527

[Pearson]

Logbooks & Hub

Ed

The logbook went with the old case. There is no hub. I am sorry to hear that you were hosed by people you know. Part of the reason I have left this engine unassembled is so someone could see what they were getting when they bought it. I have seen some pretty shady engines up for sale that were claimed to have been overhauled.

[NY86]

The simplistic way to look at it is that the dataplate IS the engine. The logs go with the dataplate, and thus with the "engine". Everything else is parts necessary to make the engine work. If you own a dataplate and the associated logs, you can buy a case and crank and cylinders and everything else and build up the engine.

The idea that the logs go with the case probably stems from the idea that the dataplate is attached to the case. If your case is cracked, you can remove the dataplate, get a different case, or exchange your case, reattach the dataplate and go from there. Then, you end up with the "same" engine you started with.

The only entity authorized to issue a new log book that is not continuation of the original logs is the manufacturer or his authorized agent. That's the concept of a zero time overhaul. Repair stations are not typically authorized by the manufacturer to do this, if only to give the manufacturer's overhauls a competetive advantage.

If you have a dataplate and no logs you should be able to get everything inspected and reassemble the engine and start a "new" log, with the caviat that the total time in service is reported as "unknown". This should satisfy most IAs, and if it doesn't then you may have to get the FSDO to sign off on "reconstructed" logs. If you have another engine with a dataplate and logs you're looking to replace, the easiest way may be to use those logs and dataplate to build up the engine from the new parts and pass the problem on to someone else.

[alwaysoar]

engine for sale

I'll just add to what John said from what I learned today. As it turned out, an FAA maintainance ASI showed up from the Portland FSDO at my A&P school, and I quizzed him about the data plate/log situation which also gets interesting when you consider annuals and 100-hours.

He said data plates should not be moved to another case or airplane, but that a new log can be created using the information that is known. In Richard's engine, you know all the specs from the yellow tags. He also suggested getting history from the maker, such as time limits. AD's are another matter I didn't ask him about, but I assume that a yellow tag means AD's were complied with. I asked him about annuals/100-hours. An engine installed on another airframe does not need an annual or 100-hour until the airframe does.

Between him and John, it seems that essentially there is no problem if there is no log--just create a new one. As John said, only the factory can actually zero the engine (remanufactured), but the log could say 0 SMOH, TT unknown.

[NY86]

Re: engine for sale

Originally posted by alwaysoar
an FAA maintainance ASI showed up from the Portland FSDO at my A&P school

What school are you at? Was the ASI Sylvester Dye?

[alwaysoar]

engine

No, It is Dan Jockett. I know the name Sylvester Dye. If he is who I think he is he an African-American who recently retired.

[taylorcraftbc65]

missing engine logs

The A65 in my BC65 has loggs that start with the ovewrhaul that was done when the aircraft was restored. The original aircraft was located in a barn, and it, along with two other partial aircraft, (read parts donors), were brought to El Paso to be assembled into one airplane by a group of six people. All that was mentioned in the engine log is that the original logs were lost, and that statement is signed by an IA. When the plane went through it's annual last month, the IA had no problems with the logbook issue. There was also a twelve year period where there are no logs on the airframe, and the IA had no problems with that either. Hope this helps. Sabrina

[Pearson]

Logbooks & Engines

Well I am glad we have had some input on this issue. I was beginning to wonder if I had screwed up by letting that old case go with the dataplate still on it. My airplane also has a logbook that starts off like Sabrina's with the statement that the old logbooks were lost.

I never intended to imply that anyone start a new logbook as if it were a new engine. And yes I would hope that since they are yellowtagged, the cylinders (and other parts) would be up to date on ADs.

Ed if you want to discuss any of this on the phone, my cell is 503 740-3853. Please call between 0800 & 2200 west coast time. I like to sleep late on my days off.

[NY86]

Re: engine

Originally posted by alwaysoar
No, It is Dan Jockett. I know the name Sylvester Dye. If he is who I think he is he an African-American who recently retired.

Retired, huh? I knew he had moved to bigger planes, but I didn't know he retired. He still used to come around and hang out even after the move. Which school are you at?

See if it was Sylvester I didn't want to say he was full of it...

I still say the dataplate generally does not go with the case. Case in point, you order a new case from the manufacturer. It doesn't come with a new dataplate. (If it did, what would you put in the new log for total time in service? Did you just figure out a way to zero time the engine?) Also it is common to get an exchange case rather than wait to have yours repaired (Divco does this). Those cases do not come with dataplates or logs. You keep yours. I suppose if you were parting an engine out it would make sense to keep the dataplate, logs and case together. Otherwise you could sell the parts, enough to build a whole engine, to one individual and sell the paperwork and dataplate, enough to build a whole engine, to someone else. Cloning, anyone?

[alwaysoar]

engine for sale

Makes sense to me. The main point is to have documentation that shows the history, what's been done, and when, and by whom. The real issue that surfaces in all this is the ripoff artist who manipulates logs/data plates. With all the oversight, the stringent FAR's, the FAA everywhere, you wouldn't think there'd be such problems. I've owned a dozen airplanes, been flying 45 years, thought I knew enough about people and airplanes to avoid getting hosed, and I got hosed.

The school I attend is Burlington Aviation Tech at the Burlington,VT airport. Just about to finish up. Our friendly FAA principal inspector likes to stop by from time to time. I usually pepper him with questions. I'm not sure Sylvester Dye retired--just heard he did.

Ed@BTV VT
TF 527

[alwaysoar]

engine wanted

Before I shell out the 5K that Richard wants for his engine (don't infer criticism here--I think that's a fair price), I'm looking at an engine for sale near here. It's installed and running, the owner is upgrading. I plan to look at it this weekend. I plan to check logs, do a compression check, fly it--what else can I do to avoid another disasster--what is a dead giveaway that I should run like heck away from that engine?

Ed @BTV VT
TF 527

[Hank Jarrett]

If you ask to fly the engine and the seller won't go with you that's a sure sign you should pass on buying (and flying) it.
Hank (watch out if he goes with you but brings a parachute too) J

[NY86]

Originally posted by Hank Jarrett
If you ask to fly the engine and the seller won't go

LOL

A good visual inspection. Look at recent history. Run if it has not flown in the last 5 years, but the owner religously turned it over by hand. Look at calendar time since last major. 30 years is a long time and implies some period(s) of inactivity. An oil analysis would be good; at least pull the screen or filter and check for pieces big enough to have part numbers on them. A boroscope inspection would be good, too. Look at AD compliance, especially if it has Bendix S-20 mags

If anyone wants to beat the dead dataplate horse further, see AC 45-3 It was written primarily to cover jet engines, but the concept is still valid.

Sylvester used to hang out at NHCTC in Nashua, NH alot. His name is on a lot of my 337's. He was one of the good guys.