Landing rules, your thoughts please.

[jim cooper]

I was taught....well it was so long ago I think I was taught,..... enter the pattern at 1200 , turn base, descending, final at about 500 or so. I was trained to make the field from any place in the pattern in case of engine failure. (Not a bad idea if your powered by a 70 year old engine with a carb. that few know how to ACCURATLEY repair any more.) Question is how high ARE YOU when you turn final? Do you keep 1200 or 1000 as you turn final. I'm doing 70 as I turn final, cranking in just a little more up trim, getting ready to slip it. Your thoughts would be appreciated.( I usually land before half way down the runway, in a 3 point.)JC

[3Dreaming]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

I'm guessing your altitudes are MSL. I learned a 800" AGL Pattern. Power Idle abeam the numbers and trim for glide. I like to complete the turn to final at 400 agl and slip to a landing. Tom

[Ragwing nut]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

Every airplane will fly a little different. You should be 800 AGL on downwind and the runway roughly at a 45* downward angle off you shoulder

[Jim Hartley]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

Hi Jim,

unless specified in the Airport Facility Directory, 1000 feet AGL is the default pattern altitude.

So many variables to consider when flying at at an airport/strip with out a tower...I try to expedite my arrival in any bird I am flying...1/2 -1 mile downwind...depends on if there is other traffic. If I am following another aircraft I try to keep directly behind them. 70-80 is a good number until on final and then 60-70 is a good number depending on groundspeed.


I reduce power abeam my intended point of touchdown... 11-1300 rpm...give or take...depending on ground speed...maintain pitch attitude until my desired speed is attained then adjust pitch attitude to maintain this speed. I try to be 300 feet below pattern altitude when I turn base and about 500 agl when turning final and most often it requires a slip to make my intended point of touchdown. Altitude is MY friend

I do full stall landings more often than not. Good practice as most flights do not include stalls.

Jim

[VictorBravo]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

There are many situations where the "normal" 800 to 1000 foot rectangular pattern makes no sense. The standard pattern is a "crutch" that IMHO was developed for a bunch of different reasons, most of which were appropriate for a "standard" airport in a "standard" environment like the middle of Kansas. However I do not think for a minute that whoever developed the standard pattern thought that it would be a one size fits all hard-set rule.

All you have to do is watch the youtube videos of the guys flying in the Idaho back country, where there are mountains in the way of base leg, or the only way to land is to follow a river for a mile through a canyon.

If you have the luxury of starting from a clean sheet of paper and an uncrowded/uncontrolled airport, I would recommend doing a standard 800 foot pattern about half of the time, and then doing as many weird and wacky landing "patterns" as possible. make your final at 45 degrees to the runway and straighten out in the last 100 feet. Do patterns at 300 foot altitude, then at 15oo feet with long sustained slip maneuvers, etc. Make curved approaches like the old navy carrier "circling approach" technique.

If you spend a lot of time doing all this strange stuff, you will be a much better pilot for sure, and you will be able to adapt to strange situations better.

[KewFlyer]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

Second you Bill.
In our uncontrolled field (HWY), practicing the unusual patterns trains me for those not so easy approach fields. On a early Saturday/Sundays [6-7 AM] I practice short approaches, high and low.... fast/slow, slip/no slip...etc... just for the fun of it. Pattern altitude is 1,000 MSL on the field, but during practice, I make it what I want...800'..1,200' or whatever. One item that I was taught to do when doing Touch and go, is to close the carb heat before the numbers, which I do even when landing at the grass fields just in case I need to go full throttle go around.
My typical approach consists of carb heat on the numbers on downwind, 1,500 RPM and 60 MPH indicated at about 1,000-800' MSL.I keep 60 MPH indicated until on final and aligned with the runway/grass strip at approx.700-500 ' MSL, slip to 55 ...50 MPH loosing speed and altitude as needed to 45 MPH on the field and continuously slowly pull back to slow down in order to keep the wheels of the ground until it stops flying and either two or three point depending on conditions[ grass/ pavement, xwinds = more speed, runway left]. It works for me...so far. Sometimes are pretty most times are not pretty landings, some bounce, others dont....just plain fun.My 2 cents

[Howard Wilson]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

100' above established pattern, carb heat mid-field, throttle all the way back opposite intended landing spot, full up trim (flipper), clear engine approx every 20-30 seconds, Keep high and tight, turn base when touch down spot is 45' off your shoulder, slip off the excess when you have it made, wheel land with tail low leaves either option. This is good practice for engine out landings by the way.

[3Dreaming]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

IMO the standard pattern including entry and exit is about safety. I teach my students from day 1 the propper entry and exit procedures for the pattern. This is as important as being at pattern altitude before you get to the pattern. It gives a place for you to look for traffic, and a place for other to look for you. Flying a non standard pattern can lead to close calls or worse. Like someone else said a standard pattern is 1000AGL with lefthand traffic at an uncontrolled airport, unless stated otherwise in the AFD. Check the AFD for the airport you are flying into, as they may not have a standard pattern.

[Howard Wilson]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

This is a good discussion. I agree that it is all about safety and expecting to see planes in a certain 'pattern' around an airstrip. The rub comes in when you have low wing vs high wing and low vs high individual altimeter settings for what ever reason. In a perfect world everyone would come into the pattern at the same altitude (let alone the same direction). IMO the most dangerous part of flying is flying around the airport environment, towered or not. You can control for a lot of things to make yourself safer ie: don't run out of gas, don't fly into that cloud bank, etc. but you can't control that low wing Piper settling 20' above your highwing T-craft. He can't see you and you can't see him......If I were king... ahem.... I'd make the rule that all low wing aircraft fly 100' below a designated altitude and all high wing aircraft fly 100' above the designated altitude. Standardization is a wonderful thing, especially for training. But how many times have we been on one end or the other of high wing versus low?? jmo. h

[3Dreaming]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

This kind of makes my point for me. If everybody is flying the pattern correctly including entries you should see the airplane before it gets on top of or below you. It is when people fly straight in, base leg entry, crosswind entry, while still descending that these problems mostly happen. I know it can happen at other times, but that's why we need to do a better job of looking for traffic. Tom

This is a good discussion. I agree that it is all about safety and expecting to see planes in a certain 'pattern' around an airstrip. The rub comes in when you have low wing vs high wing and low vs high individual altimeter settings for what ever reason. In a perfect world everyone would come into the pattern at the same altitude (let alone the same direction). IMO the most dangerous part of flying is flying around the airport environment, towered or not. You can control for a lot of things to make yourself safer ie: don't run out of gas, don't fly into that cloud bank, etc. but you can't control that low wing Piper settling 20' above your highwing T-craft. He can't see you and you can't see him......If I were king... ahem.... I'd make the rule that all low wing aircraft fly 100' below a designated altitude and all high wing aircraft fly 100' above the designated altitude. Standardization is a wonderful thing, especially for training. But how many times have we been on one end or the other of high wing versus low?? jmo. h

[Howard Wilson]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

I think we are in agreement about the standard 'pattern' being flown, and doing a better job looking. During my 1st solo, on the second circuit a cessna twin zipped under me on final and landed. I was at about 300'. He was doing a straight in. If everybody had the same altimeter reading or the skills to hold an altitude or attitude, and weren't diddling with the entertainment center glass panel.... it would be great.

[Pearson]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

Jim,

I like to turn base to final between 500 & 600 feet above runway elevation. Of course this would be if there are no obstructions near the approach end. In your area I don't think you are going to be worrying about hitting the Washington Monument.

I am of the school that teaches you should be able to make the runway from any point in the pattern. Therefore, I like to put the runway about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way up my wing strut when I am on downwind 1000 feet above airport elev.

With little or no wind, I put carb heat on and reduce to 1300-1400 rpm abeam my intended touchdown point. I do NOT like to reduce to idle because I am the one paying for the top overhauls and cracked cylinders. If the wind is more than 3-4 knots, I will make the power reduction earlier because the wind is on my tail at this point.

I maintain altitude until speed slows to 70mph, trim for that speed and start descent. Hopefully, by the time the end of the runway is 45 degrees behind my wingtip I have already lost 100 -200 feet. At this point I turn base.

With little or no wind, I turn final at 500-600 ft. The thing to remember is that if you have a good wind in your face on final you can turn final at a higher altitude and still get down. If you misjudge and end up to high, there is always the forward slip or go around.

A little before the numbers go under the nose, I like to slow to 65 mph if I have a passenger, 60mph if I am alone. Of course there are times when I am not at a regular airport and I cross the threshold at 50mph and the power up, but that is for short field.

[DanBrown]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

Yes, I agree about being able to make the field with the engine out from any point in the pattern. Once the throttle is closed on downwind, I don't look at the altimeter. My base and final are adjusted by the wind conditions and the apparent point of touchdown. Of course, that all doesn't work if you need to follow others in the pattern. Another pet peeve is instructors that teach a very wide pattern with a very long final leg as the routine approach.

About straight ins on an uncontrolled field -- Sunday I came back to W29 just before sun set with a bright sun directly down the runway making it very hard to see. A bonanza reported a 2 mile straight in just after I reported turning a 1 mile final, ready to start my slip. A recipe for disaster. There were 3 other ships reported in the pattern. Even though technically I had the right of way, and the bonanza bozo should have broken off in those conditions and made a normal pattern entry, I added power, moved to the side and did a go around.

[lfries]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

The safe pilot is the one who recognizes that while they are technically/legally correct they are the one that must act to insure safety. This action happens at my airport (KVIS) all of the time including landing on the non recommended runway. I always tell my students better to be safe and alive than right and dead.

[Larry Lyons]

Re: Landing rules, your thoughts please.

The safe pilot is the one who recognizes that while they are technically/legally correct they are the one that must act to insure safety. This action happens at my airport (KVIS) all of the time including landing on the non recommended runway. I always tell my students better to be safe and alive than right and dead.

My Daddy always told me "you may be right but do you want to be dead right?"
Larry