Avgas vs Autogas

[Buell Powell]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

Darryl,
While checking around with several Aircraft suppliers. A friend @ Wag Aero told me about a customer's Cub That was losing RPMs to 1600 max/ What they found was that the fuel hose to the Carb was swelling inside and where it had a bend was chocking off the fuel. He was running auto fuel-not sure if it contained ethanol or the material the hose was made from.
Thought this might be useful in the tests.

[fearofpavement]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

EAA has tested alcohol containing fuel with reportedly unsatisfactory results. Perhaps their data is available? Someone I know stated they would be finding out soon what effect ethanol fuel has on their small plane. It has a small Continental too. (Not a Tcraft, it is one of those slow planes)

[VictorBravo]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

Pearson, this is unfortunately a long term project and not a "next week" kind of thing. There IS a way to remove the alcohol, it works well enough for this application, but it will require some mechanical and possibly chemical equipment to do it. May not be something every airplane owner can do efficiently. Our "get rich quick in aviation" scheme is to make a mass produced device that will do it, which we can then sell to all you unwashed masses for big bucks, buy out Bill Gates, and retire with little umbrellas in our drink glasses.

At the same time I have tried unsuccessfully to find alcohol free gas here in Los Angeles. The probability is that if we can get it at all we'll have to buy a lot of it at once. It would be problematic to try and sell it, permits and insurance and finding a place where we would not be competing with an avgas retailer. Not impossible, but not a slam dunk either.

Although I am far less of a scientist and engineer than many on this forum, I think I'm on very solid ground when I say that a stock Taylorcraft running straight car gas with ethanol is a big safety hazard... DO NOT do it IMHO. The collapsing fuel line, the swelling carb needle, etc. etc. are both great ways to get some impromptu off-airport landing practice.

My GUESS is that in order to get away with ethanol car gas SHORT TERM you need the following:

Stainless needle and brass seat in the carburetor or STC a silicone rubber needle tip (no Neoprene rubber)

Teflon lined fuel hose

Silicone rubber gaskets on the fuel caps and anywhere else in the fuel system where there is a gasket

Silicone rubber O-rings on the Curtis drain valves

Teflon ball valve replacement for main fuel shutoff (probably a good idea anyway)

However this does not address the issues of corrosion and attracting water. The water issue just adds more detail to a pre-flight inspection, it's a wash for the cost savings. But corrosion in aluminum or steel fuel tanks and fuel lines is not so easy. I haven't done it, but I have it on good authority that removing a T-craft fuselage fuel tank is slightly less fun than being in a jail cell wearing a miniskirt. I CAN vouch for the "pain and suffering" factor of removing a wing tank, that's plenty bad enough for me.

[astjp2]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

Well the teflon ball valve is in the works, should be available sometime around the first of the year. Tim

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

We have 100LL again at decent prices here in Alliance. the mogas for the "tractors" is tested each time, I keep a glass and some water out there for each person to test if they wish to do so.
It is true that direct from the refinery they will blend what you want, a friend of mine used to ahve them deliver only 91 Oct. for the clip wing with the 0-360 Lyc. He has to take 1000 gal each time. I use a blend of 87 mogas , 100LL and MMO .

[gnflyn]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

I have been following this thread closely and have got some really good information. I googled bulk gasoline in my area and found a local bulk plant which I visited today. Interesting results, they told me of several area stations that they deliver non ethanol 87 octane to. I went to closest one and sure enough they had straight 87 mogas (I tested it). I bought 30 gallons and it is fresh as it was delivered this morning. The folks at bulk plant had nothing good to say about ethanol, they are having equipment failure issue as well as tanker filling issues if temeratures and humidity are not just right when they blend it.
Also, they did make mention of a new gasoline supposedly coming out next year that will be 91 octane and no ethanol, hope thats true....
Thanks for all the info.....

[Pearson]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

Can you tell us what brand that is that is comming out with the 91 octane non alcohol fuel?

[gnflyn]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

All I know is that they are an independent distributer locally, the station I went to that had the non-ethanol gas was a Fast Track station. I will see if I can find out more and report back if there is anything more to it....

[flymac]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

IM done mine went soft on take off twice in july we look at the carb mags clean the plugs nothing found gas i was useing was wawa with no problems in till they changed blend aka;;;; oxgen achol so on so on . you do all the test you what taking sample bottle of water making line and filling with gas shaking to see what you got its not worth it.
take some pump gas let it sit in the sun for day it turns cloudy nasty.
im using avgas now with no problems . at the new tapahanic va airport
i do beleve off the end runway lays a skybolt lets stick together on this and not lose one of are belove tcrafts or worst over 150 more a gal.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

IM done mine went soft on take off twice in july we look at the carb mags clean the plugs nothing found gas i was useing was wawa with no problems in till they changed blend aka;;;; oxgen achol so on so on . you do all the test you what taking sample bottle of water making line and filling with gas shaking to see what you got its not worth it.
take some pump gas let it sit in the sun for day it turns cloudy nasty.
im using avgas now with no problems . at the new tapahanic va airport
i do beleve off the end runway lays a skybolt lets stick together on this and not lose one of are belove tcrafts or worst over 150 more a gal.

I feel like the "square" white policeman on the TV show Sanford and Son... who can I turn to to translate this?

[flymac]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

ITs easy bill dont use the crap! .
and its not legal stc void . im just coming clean lot of pilots are still gambling . what i ment by soft loses of power 16-1800 rpms .for as the policeman crap be a ass may be you have abig ago or maybe you have small feet i have none im a bad speller yes but im hell of a pilot have a nice day sir . im going flying and fishin .





mac the knife mcfarland

[tabranch]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

you do all the test you what taking sample bottle of water making line and filling with gas shaking to see what you got its not worth it.

Mac,

What are you saying about testing autogas? If tests say no alcohol do you still have a problem with using autogas in an airplane? Saving $1.50 a gallon is a big deal for most of us!

[crispy critter]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

Test it and use it,that's what I say. We don't have avgas around here even if I did want to use it. I have to fly 50 nautical miles to get the nearest avgas and I pay almost $2.00 more per gallon. That's 100 nautical miles round trip just to fly around the patch. No thanks. Not to mention what the avgas does to the inside of your little low compression engines.

[flymac]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

HI all im sorry for the reply and nasty.
what I was told to do this take bottle make a line fill with water rest gas shake
let sit if the water line gos up you have ethnol or what ever . I am a master ase tech and i have my hands full latley with brand new caRS RUNNING LIKE CRAP. something wrong with are fuel right now . if you remerber gashol 1979
i spent six months trying to repair all the runned lean burn chrysler system and ford and chevys .






mac

[fearofpavement]

Re: Avgas vs Autogas

The gasohol of the late 70's and 80's is basically the same as what we are pumping now. That was 10% ethanol alcohol added to gasoline. Auto fuel has changed over time with the addition or deletion of this and that. What I encountered with alcohol containing fuel back then was that gas stations that had been operating for decades got ethanol fuel and it disolved years worth of crud in their tanks and pumped it into people's automotive gas tanks. I had a 1963 Falcon that got so much crud in it at one fill up that I eventually had to remove the tank and clean it out. Otherwise I could go about 10 miles, remove the gas filter and blow it clear and reinstall it. Go another ten miles and repeat.... now obviously this would be bad in an airplane.

Regarding using auto fuel in aircraft, that is an argument that will go on as long as anybody can afford to burn any kind of fuel in any aircraft. I use autofuel whenever I can. I prefer it. I will go out of my way to get it because I think it is better for the engine. If others have different opinions I don't mind. I also have a bunch of mechanic certifications (auto, truck, aircraft) but I am no molecular scientist. I don't know much about the hydrocarbon molecules and I don't claim to be a great pilot either (although I have been practicing for 8000+ hours) but I do know that our O-200 runs nice and clean on 87 octane mogas. So I will keep using it if I can keep finding it without ethanol...