Beacon help

[stormman]

anticollision light

HERE WE GO AGAIN
This is for entertainment only because a percentage of the world is liberal demorat and can not think without being aided by a goverment welfare program, for those few stop reading now.
For those who can . your cleared for takeoff on any runway.


"WE don't need NO stinken A C LIGHTS" just nav lights
NO electrical system
Want strobes? Put them on! NOT required. If you want to fly at night just 3 little lights on old planes.
Need a second opinion? OK i will give you a second opinion
ALL YOU NEED IS 3 LITTLE LIGHTS
If your T is a 1957 maybe you should worry about some FAA inspector or IA who can't read or be taught to read . I know of none., I DO on the other hand know of pilots who can't.

PART bab bab bab goes on to bab bab bab about TRANSPORT aircraft not what were flying


> #1 Aircraft type certified prior to April 1 1957 require none
> #2Aircraft type certified April 1 1957 to August 10 1971 need ACL in
> red or white with 1oo candle power viewable in a 360 degree pattern
> around and 30 degrees above and below the horizontal plane. Also some
> Crap about what kind of planes they are required on.
> #3 between August 11 1971 to July 18 1977 and also homebuilts must have
> 400 CP in the above light pattern
> #4 From July!9 1977 to now increases the angular coverage
> above and below the horizontal plane to 75 degrees and how the candle
> power may decrease from 400 to 20 as the sight angle increases to 75
> degrees.
> #5 WE ALL FEEL safer with strobes do we not? ME ? im going for 2 ,
> and putting another on the bottom JUST in case there's someone flying
> lower than me! NOT

" What is required and what to buy?" Name of Article

To fly at night , an airplane must have approved anticollision and position lighting systems. ( Airplanes certified prior to 1957 can legally get away with only position lights) --PAB

You're giving takeoff and landing instruction to a student in a rented 76
Piper Archer. Your student's 20-month-old son is a passenger. Which of the
following equipment is required to be installed and in use?
a Landing gear position indicator
b Seatbelts for all passengers
c ANTI-COLLISION LIGHTS
d ELT
e Shoulder harness
ANSWER: None of the above is Necessarily required. The Archer doesn't have
retractable landing gear, seat belts are only required for passengers over
two years old, ANTI-COLLISION LIGHTS ARE ONLY REQUIRED IF INSTALLED, The ELT
isn't required if the training operations are within a 50 mile radius of the
airport, and a shoulder is only required for front seats in aircraft built
after 1978. ( 91.205, 91.125, 91.209, 91.207, 91.205) George Moore
Attorney-at-Law , aviation matters, Kenney & Markowitz L.L.P. June 2000
WHILE NEITHER THE AUTHOR NOR STORMEN INTENDS TO OFFER LEGAL ADVISE {sic}
this discussion is intended to be of value and interest to the TRIBE. To
those who believed and supported me in this harrowing endeavor , I thank
YOU. To THOSE who questioned my wisdom, me you should have known better than
to have challenged the "WRATH OF NORM'
The "TRIBE" has spoken, YOU are the weakest LINK
GOODBYE :-) LOL
Love you guys Norm ,In where else but California

T

T
>
>
> Norm 44496
>

[Howard Wilson]

You said it better than I did Norm.

I thought I made a mistake one time..... Found out later I was wrong. ;-) Howard

[Greg Bockelman]

Howard, I think you are looking at this the wrong way. Lets parse the regulation differently. I think we can agree that this is the appropriate part of the reg.

--(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. --

The appropriate wording is "on ALL U.S. registered civil aircraft.

--Anticollision light systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet the anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, --

This part refers to the certification standards of the ANTICOLLISION LIGHT SYSTEM, not the airplane on which it was installed. If it was installed after August 10, 1971 it needed to conform to different visibility standards than if it was installed before that date.


--except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation white. --

This is the ONLY exception that I can find to the later reg. It can be either white or red.

--In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.--

No comment on this. It is pretty straight forward.

Anybody can do pretty much anything they want. The key is to not get caught. In this case, it is pretty clear that some sort of anticollision system must be installed to fly legally at night. The only real issue is what visibility requirements must be met and that depends on when the system was installed.

[Greg Bockelman]

Norm, this is for you.

Norm, sorry, but from your post, I can't tell what the h*ll you are talking about.

Lets try to keep this simple. I can't find in the regs anywhere where it says that airplanes certified before a certian date are exempt from the anti collision light requirements put forth in 91.205. Can you point me to that regulation specifically?

I have always said that I can be proven wrong, but so far, no one has done that. I haven't seen anything specific. Just vague references and "quotes" from people I don't know.

If I am wrong, so be it. I don't care. I've been wrong before. But give me a solid reference.

Sorry aboutr the rant.

[stormman]

A C light

OK Greg you win
I will keep it simple
YOUR WRONG Im RIGHT
You dont have to ask the audience. 50 50 , or ask a friend ,
(Seems your friends don't know the answer)
I have neither the time or the balls to try to explain what seems like the twilight Zone to some people. The earth is round but some STILL can't see it even though they have the same eyes as the rest of the population. Stiil confused ? THIS IS REAL SIMPLE!
GO to the BIBLE , Aircraft Spruce , and look under Strobes> not Actually under but on the page < the thing made of paper that comes from the tree wood process. Birchbark i do believe. ON tHAT PAGE A C S spells out in elementary words the requirements of lights in a nutshell. OK its a BIG shell but what the hell its still simple to understand. No colllege degree needed.
Speaking of College degrees, if you want one im selling my 86 560 sel COMPLETE with Stanford Alumni license plate frames. Black with tinted widows , sheepskin, Looks like a Arab shiek Car. Im tired of keeping the sunroof open looking for incoming missiles and besides its Just too flashy for retirement in Arkansas. need a good pickenup truck back there

If this was who wants to be a millionaire you would be one if you listened to me and countless others. Sure i could paint you and the other half a picture , hell i could even tattoo it on my ass . But that would not make me more correct than i am now. You can take that to your grave.
This and 10 cents won't get you a cup of coffee,
Now go do the right thing

" A man's just gots to know his limitations"


I will say it for you F- - k OFF Norm

[Greg Bockelman]

Norm,

Neither you nor anyone else has answered my question. Where in the regulations does it say that an airplane certified before a certain date is exempt from having an anti collision light system? In this case, Aircraft Spruce is NOT the bible, the FARs are. Aircraft Spruce would have gotten the info from that source. All I am asking for is a number.

By the way, Norm, what have I ever done to you? I don't really appreciate what I percieve as a personal slam on my intellegence. All I am asking for is definite proof that I am wrong. After all, according to what I have read in the Regulations, and I have quoted my source, one must have an anti collision light system to fly at night.

[Homsie]

Quotheth the bible. (Aircraft Spruce)

First sentence in black ink....

ALL aircraft must have an approved anti-collison light and position light system for nighttime operations.

Yes there are different requirements for different aircraft...but the differences are technical minutiae...not whether you need one or not.

Who needs FAR's...

[stormman]

Strobes again

Greg
Don't take it personal, this is a fun group and im the official appointed ASShole.
This question comes up every year and i give the same answer to nonbelievers who read this forum. If i was mad (which im not) i would have emailed you.

Homie Has a point
My Bible says
the regs are complex ( not to be quoted by mere mortals)
1 there are no requirements for anti-collision lights on aircrafttype cert prior to April 1 1957
But you must have position lights ( a few have been flown without, ever hear one real close but could not see it? )
I also saw a Kitfox fly the other night that looks light a flying Frieghtliner. It was brighter than the moon
2 the aircraft for which a type cert was applied for from April 1 1957 to August 10 1971 need an anti-colision light bab aba bab
you read it
Now it just goes to reason that A C with their team of lawyers would dam well make sure that what they print is correct. Also if you read 4 or more ( i think i get 6") airplane mags a month over the past 30 years it comes up all the time , this same question.
Believe it or not i was young once and HAD to KNOW the ANSWER. I spent hours if not days going through the fars on this issue to arrive at the correct answer . NOT REQUIRED

but now the drive is gone as its just a material matter and not as important as living life.
SOME things we do we do not HAVE to know the complete answer. Like right and wrong, Good and bad. GOD and Country. you know whats correct or you BELIEVE someone with wisdom sitting on a rock in India. I belive its called Faith

What i do know is im going to die sooner than i want too and its time to live life not fight some stupid question that people smarter than me have answered
9 1.209
A. from sunset to sunrise
NO PERSON MAY
1 Fly a plane without lighted position .Lights
B fly the plane if that plane is equipped with an anticollision light unless the light is turned on. ( if you don't have one you can't turn it on Right? )
ALLTHE OTHER EARLIER STUFF WAS for transport planes and of course planes after april 1 1957

I GOT A deal for you
You Explain the IRS tax code to me and i will teach you the lighting code!
Or better yet , go enroll in a GOOOOD A & P school
Now go do the Right thing. GET out there and FLY

[Greg Bockelman]

Norm,

So you are telling me that 91.205(c)(3), the part that says ...anticollision light system on ALL U.S.-registered civil aircraft. does not apply? I don't see where this part applies only to transport aircraft.

And as far as 91.209(b) goes, all that says is that if the system is installed it must be turned on, unless conditions warrent leaving them off. It says NOTHING about whether they are required for night flight.

Cheers.

[stormman]

Greg my Boy
You are trying, thats what i and others are telling you. there are many more fars and EA AC manuals that tell more but i am busy with many other things right now.
In that nutshell thing again if your before 1957 don't worry about it
c 3 goes on to say installed and goes on to say parts 23 25 27 or 29
If i recall right part 23 has a provision for non electrial aircraft that was in effect on aug 10 1971 but i would have to find my part 23 standards to quote that part, but as for now im standing on 1957 and im not standing down
57 on up =yes
57 down = no
But i know your going to beat this to death

[Greg Bockelman]

Norm,



So far, you are the only one trying to tell me that.

< there are many more fars and EA AC manuals that tell more but i am busy with many other things right now.>

I will grant you that. But usually when there are exceptions, they are cross referenced

c 3 goes on to say installed and goes on to say parts 23 25 27 or 29
If i recall right part 23 has a provision for non electrial aircraft that was in effect on aug 10 1971 but i would have to find my part 23 standards to quote that part, but as for now im standing on 1957 and im not standing down
57 on up =yes
57 down = no>

You are still asking me to take your word for it. When the FAA inspector comes to me after a night flight in my airplane that has no AC system and asks me why I am flying without the system, I can't just say, "Well, Stormmin Norm told me I could." I want to be able to pull out the book and point to the appropriate regulation. So far I can't do that because everything I have been able to find says you can't fly at night without it.

I guess at this point we will have to agree to disagree, because without definite proof, I will not be standing down, either.

By the way, if this comes up every year, you should be able to quote the specific reg because it is old hat.



Not really. I'm done. Unless of course you can quote the specific regulation

[David Price]

This is an all too important topic ( if one wishes fly at or near night time conditions) to leave one floating in an air of dought.
Someting that I believe may be of intrest to others who would like to know for sure.
Sooo, as members of the AOPA, maybe they would have some input that could be useful to all on this subject.
And yes, I'll inquire.

NORM, are you going to be at COLUMBIA this year?
Mark has invited me fly down along with 2 or 3 others this year.
It will be my first.

[Howard Wilson]

If we weren't ALL "trying" it wouldn't be any fun.

Ok, Here's the scoop so far.. Went into the local IA today about my upcoming annual, and asked about the anticollision light requirements. He said that aircraft certified before a certain date are not required to have anticollision lights. I asked him where in the regs this was published. He said he thought it was in part 23 and started to look it up when the secretary had the gall to interupt us to tell him some guy was trying to land in a c-310 with a nose wheel that wouldn't lock and he ran out to take care of that instead of answer my question. Some day he'll get his priorities straight.
Take a look on the faa.gov website, click the left sidebar on regulations and policies, click the center word in brown (regulations), click on (historical fars), click the left side bar again for (historical fars) Then (historical fars by part), Pick (Section 23.1) applicability dated 02/01/65, go to the bottom of the page and look at the info in NPRM 64-17 and then FINAL RULE 4080.

Without being much more trying, you can see the NPRM had the language that Norm is remembering. Look at sections 23.1315 and 23.1317

23.1315 says in part. " To be eligible for certification for use in night flight operations, airplanes for which application for a type certificate was made after March 31, 1957 must have an anticollision light system." and then specifies field of coverage, flashing characteristics and color.
23.1317 says in part. " Anticollision light systems for airplanes for which an application for a type certificate was made before 1 April 1957 may be certified for night operation WITHOUT an anticollision light system, it must conform either to section 23.1315 or paragraphs b through d of this section." b, talks about the light being of the rotating type, c, about color, d, about flash freq. a note says that this language is based on CAR 3.705-1

If you read the Supplemetary (sp) Information at the top of the NPRM, it talks about its object being to restate existing regs not to make new ones....
When you read the final rule 4080 the anti collision light language is similar to the latest version. But you can see how the weasel wording got derived into the current regulations.
I'm sure that there is a clearer version of how this all worked. If you people don't clean this up before my annual I'll have to corner that elusive IA. Sorry for the long diatribe here. Like my dad used to say with a smile on his face, " I'm sorry it'll never happen again" Howard

[lktiller]

HOWARD ******* DON'T LEAVE US HANGING ON THE OUTCOME OF THE STUCK NOSEWHEEL!!!!!!!!
WHAT HAPPENED????????

[Howard Wilson]

Don't know yet. The guy had 4 or 5 hours of fuel in his tanks to burn off. I couldn't wait around for the show. The initial airport bum concensus was they weren't gonna try the old guy in the back of a pickup truck doing a hundred mph down the runway pushing on the nose wheel. There's one more reason to fly T-crafts. "Check; Gear down and welded." I'll let you know. Howard