Define Sparsely Populated Areas

[VictorBravo]

Can anyone here tell me what the FAA uses to define "sparsely populated areas" versus "congested areas" versus everywhere else?

I truly enjoy flying low to the ground. There are very few places here near Los Angeles where you can do it safely. I may possibly have gone searching for one or two of them today

My question is wanting to know where the legal line is drawn, AFTER the pilot has determined that it is safe to do so from a mechanical/pilotage point of view.

I am, of course, referring to the part in FAR 91.119 that allows me to fly 500 feet away from people, structures, vehicles, etc. in "sparsely populated areas" as opposed to any other congested or not particularly congested area.

Does anyone here know for sure what numerical or tangible factor determines this in the mind of the FAA and NTSB?

[Robert Lees]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

We of course have a similar rule here (it's an ICAO rule). In the UK, a "congested area or settlement" is unofficially considered to be an area identified on the chart (sectional) as an area of habitation.

This has not been contested in court, where of course many rules are finally interpreted.

As a matter of interest, the following precedence was set in terms of trespass in the UK, and has some bearing upon your question:

"As for the height above ground at which an aircraft would be trespassing, the answer is: at or below such height as is necessary for the ordinary use and enjoyment of the land and structures upon it (Mr Justice Griffiths so decided in Bernstein v Skyviews 1978). An aircraft flown below a "reasonable height" loses the statutory immunity from actions for treespass and nuisance. Mixing theory with practice, a flight which busts the 500 foot rule might well give rise to a nuisance claim from, for example, the owner of a startled animal."

[astjp2]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

I ALWAYS fly more than 500', just ask me...

[hangarb7]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

Hi Bill,

AOPA pilot magazine did a recent article on this very subject. I am at work and don't have it in front of me, but it was in the monthly legal counsel article. Since I rarely read any magazines as soon as I get them, I am at a real loss to tell you what issue it was in, but I'll look this evening unless someone else can come up with the article for you.

Based on a recent ruling that was upheld in a challenge, it was very clear that 1) the FAA has never completely defined the sparsely vs congested rule; and 2) that the FAA can translate this any way possible almost according to how they want to prosecute the infraction. The only way to put numbers on it is to look at recent decisions and enforcements.

Unfortunately, the only way to stay out of trouble is to not fly low, something that most aviation organizations have been encouraging for many years.

Jack D

[Robert Lees]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

...to not fly low...

That's me up in front of the Beak, as sure as eggs is eggs. I love flying low (err...Mike, not your plane, I assure you!)

I might ask: who can read 2" letters from 20 feet at 100 mph? In the UK we have 36" letters under the wing, and 12" letters down the fuselage.

[flyguy]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

Since really loud dusters are all over the place, all the time out here, we don't have much trouble with that problem. Folks are probably just happy that I am not spraying defoliant or pesticide on them like the big noisy guys do.

When you see an uncongested area you will know it, there is like; nobody around.
Darryl

[M Jones]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

I love flying low (err...Mike, not your plane, I assure you!)

8-) And why not mine Rob???

[VictorBravo]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

I might ask: who can read 2" letters from 20 feet at 100 mph? In the UK we have 36" letters under the wing, and 12" letters down the fuselage.

Mine has the large red letters on the fuselage for all to see.... and rather easily when they go by at eye level.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

When you see an uncongested area you will know it, there is like; nobody around.
Darryl

Well, that's the problem exactly. You're flying around real low enjoying your "contact flying" skills, and you happen to pass by two old rusty farm tractors, a flatbed trailer and a few barrels next to a fertilizer pile under a pole barn out in a field. Logic tells you that you are not endangering anyone or frightening the locals. You're not chasing any cows or spooking sheep or even trying to disregard the intent of the FAR low flying rule... you THINK you are doing it all nice and legal.

But there could be someone standing there working behind the tractor... or there couldn't. A rusty tractor may be legally a vehicle, but then again it may be a pile of scrap. The pole barn may be considered a structure by one lawyer, or it could just be an open shade to another. A calf trots out from behind the fertilizer, and all of a sudden you're endangering someone's livestock or being reckless, even though you are specifically not trying to do so.

Or all of a sudden you get a visit from the federales saying that a farm is not sparsely populated because there has to be a farmer somewhere to work the farm.

Despite my reputation in some circles, and a very long list of poor decisions in my distant past, I am actually trying to be somewhat conservative on this issue. I genuinely do want to be able to figure out where you can do this flying, where you cannot, and where that fine line is... so I DON'T have to get into a wrestling match with the NTSB.

[Pearson]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

Bill,

I don't know how far it is from your home airport, but if you go east of Temecula there is a lot of desert out there. I don't recall the exact wording, but there is something in the FARs about those minimum altitudes not applying during takeoff and landing. Just land out in the desert every once in awhile. If someone says you are flying too low, you were looking for another landing spot.

[TimHicks]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

There is an article in the latest AOPAPilot about a guy who hit power lines with his Stearman. The lady in his front seat was killed and he was found guilty of some level of negligence.
I can't remember the details. But he was flying over a remote area that he thought he was familiar with.

[Robert Lees]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

That was down a river in Wisconsin..he messed up, and got the book thrown at him, quite rightly so IMHO.

If you're down where the wires are, better make sure you know where they are. Or at least make sure you can see out the front. Stearman? You can't.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

Interesting conversation with an FAA flight operations person about an hour ago... there is no numeric or tangible definition between "other than congested" and "sparsely populated". That's the good news, because it is at least arguable one way or another. Now the other news...

In this fellow's opinion, a telephone pole or power line is a "structure", as would be a hay bale shade. He also said it didn't matter if anyone was actually in a vehicle or not, just being a vehicle gives it 500 feet worth of protection from my marauding little T-craft. As to when it stops being a pile of rusted metal and becomes a real vehicle... I didn't get the impression this guy wanted to get into it. Not the sharpest tool in the shed.

I would have hoped that a structure meant a building, house, barn, etc. but that it did not include a simple telephone pole or a lifeless auto carcass.

[astjp2]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

Interesting conversation with an FAA flight operations person about an hour ago... there is no numeric or tangible definition between "other than congested" and "sparsely populated". That's the good news, because it is at least arguable one way or another. Now the other news...

In this fellow's opinion, a telephone pole or power line is a "structure", as would be a hay bale shade. He also said it didn't matter if anyone was actually in a vehicle or not, just being a vehicle gives it 500 feet worth of protection from my marauding little T-craft. As to when it stops being a pile of rusted metal and becomes a real vehicle... I didn't get the impression this guy wanted to get into it. Not the sharpest tool in the shed.

I would have hoped that a structure meant a building, house, barn, etc. but that it did not include a simple telephone pole or a lifeless auto carcass.

Just think, that is the sharpest tool that OKC can produce

[flyguy]

Re: Define Sparsely Populated Areas

Maybe the bottom line would be "stay away from people," because junked autos, cows, and haybales don't make complaining telephone calls.

I knew a guy who once cruised alongside a beautiful and powerful-looking cabin cruiser on Monterey bay in a Cessna Aerobat. The cruiser was really honking across the bay throwing up whitecaps. The people on the boat were in a party mood I guess, saluting with their drinks and waving and smiling. After a little bit one of the young ladies took off her bikini top and gave a big wave and a salute. Up with the flaps, wing wag and a military break to the right. Marvelous afternoon.
DC
Edit: by the way Bill, it sounds like you and that new -85 are having entirely too much fun.