Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

First to Forrest’s question, YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING!!!! I would NEVER split from the fold; I just want to iron the sheets a little. Hopefully you were talking about another thread and don’t think I would split from the tribe! You aren’t getting rid of me THAT easy.
Second is to Bill Berle on the value of the company, SPOT ON! The value of the company is what we can get it for. The key here is if there is a fire sale we all DON’T want to start a bidding war among OURSELVES! Let’s buy it as a group with US being the only bidder. I don’t want to “cheat” the current owner but if he sold it to Harry for $38,000 and Harry still owed $xx,xxx on the bill, then $xx,xxx would be a fair start for a purchase price. If we sell enough shares to pay $xx,xxx and have money available to set up the fixtures for folks to rebuild their fuselage somewhere or make some parts, so much the better!
Now for Ed O’Brien, PUT THAT STINKING PIPE OUT AND GET IN OUT OF THE WEATHER! We want you around for a while! Also, you got some good points on having existing manufacturers make parts, but the first step is get legal rights to the paperwork and tools. I’m for letting the “board” or whatever negotiate anything they want to help the tribe. I figure we will put people we trust on the board. THAT part doesn’t worry me a bit. When Forrest says “wait one till I can talk about it”, that is exactly what I do. I’m not worried he (or any of you guys) is going to skip town with my lunch money.
A crack pot entrepreneur coming out of the woodwork DOES worry me. If it happens, maybe we should try and sell him a plane instead and get him in the group. Save him some money and keep us away from another “Harry” situation.
Hank

[Larry Lyons]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

OK OK count me in for a share, I agree with Hank, Ed and Burell. We are the most likely candidates to own this heap. And we are the only ones that could possibly get it out of debt. We go in not looking to make a profit, nor rebuild it so we can sell it for a profit. We are in for the long haul and to preserve the Taylorcraft as a classic plane, not your newest Wizz Bang LSA. Remember, a lot of what you see when someone comes in to pick up the pieces, they are doing so to get it back to where some other dummy thinks it looks like a good investment. They sell, take the money and run, and the new owner is left to try and make it a go!
Larry

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

I wouldn't get too worried about some white knight high roller zapping Mr. Patrick with his money laser. Chances are
the last several months have been used making the quiet contacts. An agreeable price has not been struck. Harry and Mr. Patrick think one thing and the back-channel money boys think another. We could get it if:
1. We don't get crazy for coco-puffs in a hurry. While Harry owned it... he didn't move the ball that far. He just wasted 6 years of our hopes. So some other fancy pants is likely to do the same.
2. The price is yest to be determined. Offering it for sale is just one determining factor.
3. Expertise is hard to come by. Almost anybody that knows anything about Taylorcrafts is here, amongst us.
4. LSA, 100Hp, auto-start,24 gallons of gas, and $10K less than a Legend Cub is the market for new. However, start with parts is less sexy but the only way to give this proposed company the mouth-to-mouth it needs to live. Parts ain't sexy enough for entrepeneurs -- but it's just the girl for us.
Regarding puffing on my pipe... I don't inhale, and I habitually cough up all the bad stuff. How's that?
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[crispy critter]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Guys,if this could be pulled off,"BIG IF", is it legal for us as members to donate the purchase money to the foundation and then let the foundation purchace the rights and the everyone who puts up money could count it as a tax right off ?

[flyguy]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Have to stay non-profit, right??
DC

[VictorBravo]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

is it legal for us as members to donate the purchase money to the foundation and then let the foundation purchace the rights and the everyone who puts up money could count it as a tax right off ?

YES it is. That is exactly the right way to do it as well.

The first thing is that Harvey Patrick should donate the assets to the foundation and get a $750,000 donation write-off. If he pays taxes or has investments or income, then this method will get him the largest amount of money in his hands of any possible outcome.

If he is plain old not smart enough to do it that way, then after he pays storage fees for all this stuff, waits a year for Bill Gates to come in with money to buy it, and finally figures out that nobody with any business sense in or out of aviation would buy it at a six figure price...

THEN the Foundation can send out an appeal to its members asking for donations to purchase the assets. If 1000 members donate 50 or 75 bucks each, then there's a chunk of change that would be an appropriate price for the TC's, tools and engineering data. The foundation members get a tax write-off on their donation, taking that 50 or 75 bucks off of their taxable income.

There is NO VALUE WHATSOEVER to ANY business entity named Taylorcraft at this moment. In fact the business entity has not only devalued itself to zero but it has managed to devalue the physical assets along with itself.... that's quite an accomplishment! It's like screwing up your house with toxic waste so bad that it lowers the property value to half of what the empty lot would go for!

Any venture capital investor worth the fin on his back would smell this a mile off. Five minutes research on Harry Ingram, an hour reading Chet's book about all the stock swindles and bankruptcies, and seeing the awkward silence / non-action / apparent complicity on some level by D&E... and Elvis has left the building.

By not donating the assets to the Foundation, and insisting on a cash sale, Mr. Patrick in this case would only get the 50 or 75 grand the members would cough up instead of the 250 grand in write-offs he would have gotten if he just donated it to the foundation... but that would be his loss and not our problem. That would be his penance for supporting and financing Harry Ingram and then sitting by while Harry turned his asset into junk.

Mr. Patrick, if you're reading this, no offense is intended at all, but like the song says "you gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em".

Sorry Sir... but it's time to fold 'em.

You can get a couple or three hundred grand worth of write-offs by folding your hand now at the right moment, or you can wait until the cards are all on the table and find that your hand is worth a quarter of that.

[flylo]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

flyguy
Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08
Have to stay non-profit, right??
DC


Not making a profit would be the easy part!

[Tom Garrick]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Very well said Bill. Lets not forget that Harvey and D&E have been the folks supporting Harry all these years while they stole and cheated so many friends and Taylorcraft owners.

Tom Garrick

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Dutch Auctions are neat, I have done them. Usually used for flowers and sometimes tobacco.
Keep the information flow going, the last time around , many buyers did not own a Taylorcraft, they wanted to use somebodys money to buy something for themselves , get Government grants , puff their chests out and say they owned something.
EDIT: OOOPs , just checked back on thread, Hell no Hank we need you I was refering to splitting the threads, this monitor stuff is neat , BOB Ollerton warned me to watch out for a meglomanic (sp) attack. many good ideas are emerging....

I believe that I can share with all that the intention of the owner of Taylorcraft 2000LLC , Mr. Harvey Patrick, is , if it does not sell in place, to move it to Florida. I will keep checking the situation tomorrow.
HOPE THIS damn Winter storm peters out!!!
Got the BIG tractor running today. MF 2705 . IT was a loose ground off the main battery(s) cable.
see attachemnt . Would you buy a used airplane from this guy!!

[tim]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

The Taylorcraft Foundation is exclusively organized for charitable, educational & scientific purposes and will preserve the history and technical information of the Taylorcraft airplanes

i think its time we start to preserve are PARTS !!!! too if we cant get parts we cant fly

just like that

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

There are parts here in Alliance and a lot of places. THAT is the purpose of the forumn to have the owners and restorers a place to exchange information.
Many sources are out there and listed on the WEB site too!

Here in Alliance Barber aircraft sells the parts it has ;
check www.barberaircraft.com direct e-mail is [email protected]

[Chet Peek]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

First, Forrest, I applaud your efforts in this matter which I know have gone on for several years. I would also suggest that we all read Chapter 12 of THE TAYLORCRAFT STORY again, for a bit of bankruptcy history.
Buying "assets" is a tricky business, they can have all sorts of leins, etc attached. Some good legal minds should weigh in on this, and I'm not one of them.

[dewhitaker]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

OK... instead of a Club Company... and there are examples of this, most are run by rich guys with money to burn and they do burn it... howabout a financing/bond-package built on a basic purchase of factory equipment. This equipment (tools, jig, drawings, etc) then is GIVEN to Univair, Wag-Aero, and Alaska Struts (whatever their name is now) each of these companies then pay off the loan/bond/at an agreed price over an agreed time period. We members agree to purchase the products from them. The financing plan at say $1.5million means:
1. This plan distributes the various PMAs so that there's competition on price, quality, and performance.
2.We are getting the expertise of these parts manufactuers in the bargain (although not for free they will get a profit)
3. We get a club member's discount price. Which helps the club with membership and the PMAs with volume.
4. The orginal bondholders have a better chance of getting paid back.
5. Univair, Wag-Aero, etc. become stakeholders in making and stocking parts... because they want to pay-off the bondholders.
6. FAA, having already worked with these PMAs, is more moliable, pacified, and helpful.
7. Make part of the package employing someone like Forrest Barber, Terry Bowden, other members... as PMA
"overseers" to make sure things are kept on track, services provided, and thing attended too. It's a parttime job... but responsibility to bondholders and the club. Accounting and payback of loan/bond also is included in this executive package.
8. Every part is accounted for. All parts are available. Price is at market and slight discount for members. Repayment is assured. FAA is attended to. Club isn't responsible for negligence, lawsuits (unless finance blows-up) Forrest and Terry (or anyone else we elect with expertise) makes some money. We have solid companies in our corner.
Kick it around. I'll be in the lobby puffing on my pipe. Get back to me when you're done chewing on that.
With regards; ED OBRIEN

Tribe, I really like Ed's direction he is going for this. The idea behind getting control of the intelectual property, and allowing someone else with expertise in manufacturing make the parts, is a sound one. To rebuild the great Taylorcraft reputation is going to take some very credible individuals collectivly working together! We have that in this group.

The profit motive is something that needs to be kept rained in. Everyone needs to understand that the profit margins are very small. These are more labors of love than money makers.

My connection with Taylorcraft goes clear back to when C.G. first came to Alliance, and my grandfather was his Chief Mechanic. Al Barber was a test pilot, and Forrest's Dad. My Dad, Lou Whitaker, and Forrest grew up around these airplanes. The airplane my Dad and I own together, N36468, was probably worked on by my grandfather when brand new, and the logbooks show it was test flown by Al Barber. Forrest was gracious enough to recently re-create that test flight on the Butterfly's birthday.

Now before I get too teary eyed emotional to type, guys and gals, lets try to preserve this great aircraft. I will be willing to contribute to something in the direction Ed is suggesting.

[Howard Wilson]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

There has to be some 'right of reversion'. of the tangible and intelectual property. Maybe a long term lease of the tooling, jigs, drawings, etc... owned by some form of the Foundation ie: BOD and voting membership, with certain specified performance criteria required of the leasee.

[jdoran]

Re: Taylorcraft 2000 LLC Is FOR SALE 3-5-08

Forrest,

I used to have a tractor like that also. I never just came out and called it an MF when it wouldn't start though.

Reminds me of the time I was boarding a commuter flight and the guy in front of me hit his head on the top of the door frame. He uttered an expletive, and the flight attendant said "actually it's pronounced FOKKER sir"