Register Experimental?

[NC95842]

So, just what would I have to do to register Experimental?

I find myself wanting to put my BC12-D under experimental category so I can fit it with a set of Zenair amphibious floats and have a little more say over my personal safety when it comes to fitting parts.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Register Experimental?

In order to register experimental you need to "significantly alter the plane"

The items you mentioned do not do this. If you want to clip wings according to approved plans (or some variation thereof) you could then be experimantal OR If you wanted to fly it for exhibition purposes you could then go experimental

You should be able to research this sit and find everything already written on this extensively

Best regards,
Jim

[flyguy]

Re: Register Experimental?

Put an aluminum buick V8 in it, or turbocharger, rocket assisted takeoff, I can think of a 100 of them, LOL. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Seriously you could operate in (I think it is) an experimental research class if you wanted to try some different things. Maybe electronics ignition?
Let your imagination run amuk. Talk to your FSDO guys. IMHO it restricts how and where you can fly and provides a CYA for the authorities, so it probably isn't too hard to do.
Darryl

[hangarb7]

Re: Register Experimental?

The very question that I asked my EAA Technical/Flight Advisor who has worked with me on my Experimental Teenie Two. I have a '46 BC12D.

His answer was that it just was not possible, per se. I wanted to switch to an uncertified Continental 75hp motor and make some other small mods, none of which were really structural as far as I was concerned.

He said the FAA is really starting to toughen the allowances for airplanes registered Experimental.

Remember those Breezy and Kingfisher homebuilts constructed in the '50s and '60s with Aeronca or Cub wings? Can't do anymore according to him. In fact, they frown on using certified metal ribs or spars to make the wings (of course, knowing that, you wouldn't tell them, I suppose).

I suggested that maybe I could make my own struts for the TC, but he said that if the FAA had their way, I couldn't do that even if I tried to register it as Experimental. They would still expect Taylorcraft parts to be used if they were available.

I can't find the article that he sent me to prove his point, but apparently, he is right on. Jim's comment about going the official clipwing route is another issue but I suppose his answer is also correct.

But you just can't called it Experimental. Technically, one airplane has one airworthiness certificate for it's life.

Good subject to discuss...

Regards and Merry Christmas to all,

Jack Dernorsek
N44057 (soon to order struts from Alaska)

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Register Experimental?

Problem for some of us pre-war owners is there AREN'T any of the same struts offered. The new ones are a LOT bigger than what are on our planes. I would love to convince the FAA that since the new struts ARE NOT the same as what my plane was built with, and no one is offering the same struts, I should be allowed to make new struts under the "Owner Manufactured Parts" rules. Problem is I would like to incorporate the sealed properties of the new struts with the size and shape of the originals. I doubt they will let me. The Feds will probably just say to put the big struts on and enjoy my plane.
I even know someone who can roll rube to the size streamline tube I need, but you don't want to know what it costs! $$$$$$$$$
Hank

[Larry Lyons]

Re: Register Experimental?

I have been reading for about a year now the FAA is really clamping down on going Exper. with a certified plane. It is my understanding that you will have a very tuff time getting the go ahead to modify a T-Craft to Exper. What I read said that even Poberenzy's T-Craft would not be allowed by todays standards. There is even a pic of that plane on the EAA web site to use as wallpaper on your desk top. Saw it this morning as I down loaded a pic. of PBY over a beach somewhere, something to warm my heart as we already have over a foot of snow on the ground and winter is not here yet!
Larry

[flyguy]

Re: Register Experimental?

I was actually thinking in terms of being an "legitimate company" that wanted to experiment with some type of device on an aircraft as opposed to an experimental aircraft used for transportation and recreation.
Doubt if the FAA would want to be seen as putting a crimp on legitimate commercial innovation. But then C.S./CYA factors are becoming more the norm in our society with every day that passes. Possible solution; shoot all the lawyers.
DC

[Garry Crookham]

Re: Register Experimental?

There are 9 types of experimental certificates:
a. Research and development
b. Showing compliance with regulations
c. Crew training
d. Exhibition
e. Air racing
f. Market surveys
g. Operating amateur built aircraft
h. Operating primary kit built aircraft
i. Operating light sport aircraft

Of the 9 types the least restrictive is operating amateur built aircraft. As stated earlier in this thread the FAA is starting to enforce the 51% rule that has always existed for amateur built aircraft. In other words, you must build 51% of the aircraft to qualify as an amateur built aircraft and obtain the required special flight permit (the airworthiness certificate issued to amateur built aircraft). A standard category aircraft cannot be converted to an amateur built aircraft (yes, we are all aware of this being accomplished in earlier times, but the FAA has stated it’s not going to happen in the future). Also, the use of major components from standard category aircraft is being discouraged…if you use a set of Cub or Taylorcraft wings on your homebuilt, you will not get credit for the manufacture of such and might end up lacking the 51% required.

It is possible to obtain an experimental certificate in one of the other categories, but you must prove you will be operating within the guidelines of that category, and there are a lot of restrictions, such as submitting a program letter each year to the FAA listing each flight---when and where the aircraft will be flown

FAR 21.191 is the place to start your research.

Garry Crookham
N5112M
Tulsa

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Register Experimental?

thank you Sir made my life easier this morning... it is indeed a two edged sword.

[jawinn]

Re: Register Experimental?

OK, let's talk the clip wing issue. Most of the "extra" parts for my project are spoken for, but I have the basic plane left and was thinking of hanging on to it to do a Swick conversion. Is this not going to happen anymore with a factory Tcraft?

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Register Experimental?

I dont know what the FAA pulling their knives out for now with regard to this BUT I do know that the SWICK PLANS HAVE IN THE PAST BEEN APPROVED TO CONSTRUCT A TAYLORCRAFT PREVIOUSELY CERTIFIED AS EXPERIMENTAL.

Who says not ?

Best
JIM

[Garry Crookham]

Re: Register Experimental?

Once again, we need to define which experimental category is being discussed. To certify an aircraft as “experimental-amateur built” the builder must construct at least 51% of said aircraft. As I stated in a previous post the FAA and designees, in the past, have been somewhat lenient in enforcing the 51% rule, and there are quite a few amateur built aircraft flying that didn’t actually meet the 51% rule. There is now an emphasis being placed on following the letter of the law. Advisory Circular AC 20-27F- Certification and Operation of Amateur Built Aircraft is a good reference publication. Within this AC is FAA form 8000-38-Fabrication/Assembly Operation Checklist. I think we will see a requirement for this checklist to be completed so the certifying inspector/designee can determine the actual amount of construction that the builder has accomplished. If you can prove that your clip wing Taylorcraft meets the 51% rule, you should have no problems certifying it as experimental-amateur built. If it doesn’t meet the 51% rule, it is probably possible to certify it as “experimental-exhibition” if you are planning on flying airshows, etc. The downside of this is that the exhibition certification is more restrictive than the amateur built certification, and the owner can’t do other than the preventive maintenance tasks defined in Appendix A(c) of FAR Part 43, an A&P has to do the rest.
I do know of at least two clip wing Taylorcrafts that have received standard category airworthiness certificates. They were certified many years ago and to accomplish that task today, while possible, would require lots of effort and $$$$.
I’m not trying to discourage anyone from attempting to accomplish their objectives but being frequently involved with this stuff I urge anyone with thoughts of trying to place their aircraft into an experimental category to do the research and realize the obstacles that are to be overcome. And yes, there exceptions to every rule. If you are chummy with an United States Senator and have enough stroke with him, you can probably put your Taylorcraft in any category you desire. I've witnessed such an occurance.

Garry Crookham
N5112M
Tulsa

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Register Experimental?

Our Swick, now owned by Mark Ohlinger is Standard Category ; it is real easy to make them Experimental- Exhibition. Why not direct this to the new holder of the Swick stuff..

[jawinn]

Re: Register Experimental?

Forrest, I spoke with him for a few minutes the other day. Nice guy. Anyway, what I wanted was to find some real world, recent experience building a Swick from a previously certified Tcraft. I guess the real question I'm asking, is can I modify my fuselage and tailfeathers per the plans, build new wood clip wings, slap on an O-200 and register the bird as an amateur built experimental? Seems that was common in years past. My fuselage and tailfeathers are beautiful, but the wings need rebuilt either way I go and I'd probably be happier with the clip wing anyway. I like to play a little. Nothing hard core, but I like unusual attitudes. Heck, I have an unusual attitude!

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Register Experimental?

When I purchased my plans from Mike Swick he included the checklist that shows the 51% work required to build the Swick EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT(as in from an existing Taylorcraft) all checked off and in compliance.

Again as I stated earlier I have no idea what the FAA is sharpening their knives about right now . I do not work closely with them every day and would not consider my self an authority if even if I did. Why? Frankly as great as my experience with the FAA is , one can find huge variations from one region to the next based on experiences people share on this very thread.

SOOO Forrest hit the nail on the head : Check with the current owners of the Swick . Meantime I will continue with mine and wont be losing any sleep.

"Your mileage may vary " as you state Gary

Best to all and Merry Christmas
Jim