max xwind

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

airbum is a great sight...I don't know where he finds the time to do all he does and go where all he goes but he is one lucky guy.
I fly a L2 also but find it real solid and responsive in a crosswind BUT every plane is as different as people as you have said before on another thread,even within the same models and we know that to be undebateable!

[Ragwing nut]

Re: max xwind

I maxed out our F-21 when we still had it and it will handle more than a BC12 due tot he Cleavelends. I took off into a 20-30 knot headwind and when I got to where i was headed, the wind was 20-30 knot crosswind 90*. Had it lock to lock ailerons and rudder and could not land on pavement even starting on one side of the runway and moving over. I could not get it straight. Had to land in the grass beside the runway and slide it in. I should have never landed it and won't ever attempt it again unless I get caught in it. it is just an accident waiting to happen.

Mike

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

that sounds hairy...glad the bird did it's job for ya!

[flyguy]

Re: max xwind

In light of what has been discussed here I think I might try one new thing. In the AM, summers, we don't have the wind exactly down the runway as I suggested before. It is usually light and variable slightly off to the right. Considering the problem I seem to have with even the light right crosswinds I think that I may try rolling it on under those conditions.
Normally with the light right I just kinda flop it on no big deal, but it isn't very pretty and the reason is in three point I can't see anything off to the right because the airplane is tipped to that side. Can't see well out the right or left with a right hand crosswind.(let's hear it for tandem seating)

Since that is when I would normally practice wheel landings that should work out well.

C95 in Yuba City,
Not too far, after I get my mag problem corrected I'll PM y'all.
Darryl

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

Daryl,
Try crabbing in.
You can crab to right above the ground say 5 or 6 feet then straighten it out with rudder.
If you pay attention doing this(not saying you don't)you will find that as you get close to the ground you will feel the plane settling in to a smooth pattern of air usually as ground gradient (not ground affect) has it's affect on things usually around 8 foot or so.It is at that point you will see you won't need the crab angle ,you can actually feel the smoother air and see the plane start drifting into your direction of crab if you continue to hold the rudder pressure.
Then it is just a standard recovery from crab to straight down the runway.
It is not as complex as it takes me to spell it here.
For your right wind you will have right rudder to stop drift and left aileron to keep wings level on your approach.
When you feel that need for right rudder input lessen again around 5 or 6 foot you will go to your left rudder to straighten the nose out and right aileron to keep wings level then back to neutral and flare.
If in doubt about doing it, go up to a couple thousand and set up an approach and practice those control movements,dutch rolls and making squares with the nose are great coordination exercises that help produce control you need sub conciously for every landing and smooth returns from crab angles.
It really is simpler than my description ,sorry to sound complex if it does.

[dedrekon]

Re: max xwind

I agree with the general consensus that you should land it the way that makes you the most comfortable. I also strongly believe a taildragger pilot should have an arsenal of techniques at their disposal.

It's true you can't get a TCraft in all that short with a wheel landing, it'll take 8-900' and if I'm trying to really squeak it in, I do a full flop 3 pointer. The problem I find with the 3 pointer is in GUSTY crosswinds. As you flare, you lose the ability to control direction until you're firmly on the ground. It's just for a second or so, but an abrupt 5mph sideways gust on a 10 feet wide landing strip could put you in the weeds (hopefully). It could actually be worse if it's quartering slightly into you, because you'll regain flying speed, probably climb a few feet and then get dumped off the side.

That's why I prefer wheel landings in gusty conditions. With a nice steady crosswind (even a big one), any number of techniques will work well.

Of course this is only my humble opinion. There are some sharp guys here who see it the other way. If you google the subject you'll find many superb high time pilots on either side of the issue.

Did I mention that wheel landings are fun and LOOK great?

v

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

V,
nicely said.
I have a hard time I guess, understanding that momentary loss of control people speak of as I have never experienced it ,not intimating it doesn't happen I just have never felt it so threin lies my perplexity.
I tend to think the loss of control is just a momentary upset from wind or thermals and mixed or slow reactions. One thing I do see when I ride with people is there tends to be little follow up reaction in people to a control input,example.... if the nose is straight and a wing dips the common problem I see is aileron to straighten the wing only.If that aileron is not used with opposite rudder then your wing is now level but your nose has moved in the direction of the up aileron and no longer inline with the runwaysame if the nose drifts and the rudder is used to correct it without the proper opposite aileron input you have a straight nose but a down wing and you know a tenious final leads to a tenious touchdown at best.This part is purely conjecture but I believe has some merit to it. When we start feeling out of control on final the body gets tense and we react slower but I think the mind shifts to a one track mode and only thinks GET ME DOWN and forgets to use the throttle to control the ups and downs and the descent rate which in turn leads to rough landings and bounces which can be precarious in crosswinds or landing with the nose out of line when a little throttle would give you time to straighten it back out, stuff like that.
Also I do like to hit the edge of the runway in the heat and crosswind(paved ones) as the heat eminating from the pavement in the afternoons definetly upsets the apple cart.Grass approach areas are cooler and the pavement tends to balloon you ,so I hit at the first part of the pavement before I get to into the heat area.
I guess also I am a different creature in that I don't mind getting bumped around some on landings( not that I want to create it) but I get more of an adrenalin rush reacting seamlessly to bumpy air and getting her set down smoothe and firm despite mother nature than a wheel landing can do for me.
Different strokes.

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: max xwind

Has anyone read Budd Davisson's pilot report on the BC12-D? Does anyone have an opinion of Budd's assessment of how the Taylorcraft handles in a cross wind?

Frank D

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: max xwind

Frank;
Regarding the Budd Davidson/Airbum critique that the BC12D is harder to land in a crosswind than a Citabria... Well, this will open up another kettle of insecurities. But I'd agree with Budd. That said, I've got a bunch of Citabria time and not that much BC12d time. The Taylorcraft is touchier, lighter, and with less engine fire power available to straighten out the nose, get airborne again, or sooth a bounce, if need be. The brakes on a Citabria are much better... and I even had a Citabria (a '62 Champ acutally) with heel brakes. So I agree. With that admission... let the games begin.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

no comment , I can hear you all cheering!

[flyguy]

Re: max xwind

Couldn't agree with you more Ed. I'm gonna jump right on this one just after a quick read of your reply as my experience with any Clark Y or Modified version is that they are much easier to control in and around the stall. They will mush and mush and you can play with it right down to the ground. I wish I could say that about the Taylorcraft wing. Any of that type are so much more forgiving, notably in the flare.
Add on: I remember going up with an instructor in San Jose in a Citabria when my T had the wing off. The instructor was "Here, you have to do it this way it is kinda tricky." I'm about to turn around and look at him like "Duh, that's tricky? You obviously haven't seen tricky."

RE: the right xwind. I've done all kinds of wild-a**ed stuff in a left xwind, but I get pretty serious when it is from the right, which is fortunately rare around here. I was taught to look out the left side at an angle about far enough ahead that the ground doesn't blur and to judge my flare that way. Generally works pretty good except it is hard to do in a right xwind, because I can't see much. Anyway, lots of good ideas here, I'll just try the ones I don't do already and maybe find some useful tricks to put in my bag.
Darryl

[flyguy]

Re: max xwind

One other little thing--I recently noticed and had forgotten about it while this thread is going on: I find the T has a more controllable flare in a cross wind. It is really consistent with me. I if it isn't too gusty I make a smoother and better controlled flare with a left crosswind than with no wind at all, or one head on. Think about the T wing characterstics and what is going on in a slip and you will see this makes sense.
Darryl

[Ragwing nut]

Re: max xwind

Frank;
Regarding the Budd Davidson/Airbum critique that the BC12D is harder to land in a crosswind than a Citabria... Well, this will open up another kettle of insecurities. But I'd agree with Budd. That said, I've got a bunch of Citabria time and not that much BC12d time. The Taylorcraft is touchier, lighter, and with less engine fire power available to straighten out the nose, get airborne again, or sooth a bounce, if need be. The brakes on a Citabria are much better... and I even had a Citabria (a '62 Champ acutally) with heel brakes. So I agree. With that admission... let the games begin.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

I have both Citabria time and Decathalon time, and both are easier to fly than a Taylorcraft. Almost too easy IMO. The airplanes were built on two different design priciples. Citabria is very balanced, easy to control, good visibility, and boring to fly unless your upside down in it. The Taylorcraft is a rudder first airplane. You don't make any control inputs without considering ro using the rudder first. Try making a turn without using the rudder and see what happens. Then make a left turn and a right turn with only the rudder and without using the ailerons and see what it does. I consider the Taylorcraft a "pilot's airplane".

Mike

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: max xwind

I've got tail-draggin' twin Beech time, DC3, Champ, Cub, Scout, Taylorcraft, time and plenty of regular tri-gear time in Bonanzas, Barons, Twin Commanders, C-310s 320's and 421s... but the only planes I've ever found as "tricky" to land were a short S1 Pitts and a 150 HP Piper Colt. I couldn't get either of those planes to make a pretty landing even in no wind, light wind, or minor crosswind landings... I never wrecked one but I was awfully uncomfortable landing them. Twin Commanches aren't tough to land but are tough to grease. Every move I ever made in landing those birds was basically reactionary and defensive. If you can land a Pitts with authority, confidence, and grace... you got me beat by a country
airport mile.
With regards; ED OBRIEN

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

the Pitts I understand but the colt and tripacer are too simple and they beat the socks off 172's in every way but appearance