max xwind

[flyguy]

I'm inspired to ask after reading the "Brakes and Steering" thread: What is the limiting factor for crosswind on a BC12? Do you run out of rudder or drag the wingtip first?
Best I've ever done was about 19 kts landing, gusting who knows what, and about 25 knots takeoff.
I must not have been at the limit as I didn't run out of anything or drag the tip.
DC

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

before you get that far you can strart landing diagonally across the runway and cut down on the crosswind component.
during rollout you can line the plane up with the runway and the tail will help to keep the wing from dipping or wanting to grounloop as the wind will want to act against the tail.
don't take this to mean you cannot tip or groundloop it only helps against it as opposed to eliminate it.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: max xwind

Cross wind landings are easy if you try the following. Line up like a normal landing but with some power... 1000 rpm to 1400 rpm depending on conditions. You can't actually land a Taylorcraft with that much power but you are experimenting with the first 3rd of the runway. (this advice is given with th proviso that you have a long enough runway to attempt the following) Touchdown your wheel which is on the windward side. Hold your opposing wheel off... ease off on your windward side pressure and reduce the power, let the opposing gear touch lightly at first. If you can get the plane to track, you're home free and do a regular wheelie landing... if you can't get it to track... then find another place to land. Personally I've never liked landing crosswise (at any angle) on a runway... even a 150 ft. wide concrete behemoth. For one thing you can't practice it. For another you can't figure it out on the fly, so to speak, because there are too many moving parts and too little room for error. If the wind load is too much to handle you'll be in the weeds before you're airborne again. You won't know if you've cut the angle sufficently to land properly until you've used up a good portion (or maybe all) of the runways width. I've tried both and actually run off a runway... just a little bit... trying to get airborne again. Do what you like, of course, others will argue the point... but if you haven't tried both ways you haven't got both sides of the argument.

Chances are there will be a close enough airport with a
landing pretty close to directly into the wind. Go there and wait for things to die down... if need be, rent a car... drive home. It's cheaper than fixing a wing tip, folded gear, blown tire, busted prop, etc. We get winds around here (Denver) that come up in a hurry and blow through like a freight train...
we think of them as the rogue waves of aviation. So this is handy advice from a little experimentation by people who've had some pucker till your teeth crack landings.
With regards;
Ed O'Brien

[flyguy]

Re: max xwind

Hadn't thought of checking out how bad the conditions are by putting down a wheel. Don't know if it is much use to me as I would never attempt to do a 2 wheel in really strong cross winds--just doesn't make any sense to me. I want that tailwheel on the ground. I always figure if I can control it through the flare I can land.

What I was looking for was if anyone has ever run out of rudder, or drug a wingtip, and what was the wind component when that happened. It has to be pretty big number.
DC

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: max xwind

Wheelies in higher winds aren't about landing but seeing IF you can land. Meaning if you can't get the wheelie to track, your "perilous tail fall moment" is going to be way too exciting! Normally wheelies (atleast for me) are the best flying test bed way to go in a big crosswind. With your tail up -- you're carrying enough speed to be airborne again quickly. You should have both Wheel and 3-points in your bag of tricks. If not you're short changing your versatility as a pilot.

With regards; ED OBRIEN

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

I have not been able to max my L2 out yet ,although I know you can. It seems to handle alot real well and continues to surprise me with its ability.
I practice going diagonal all the time on 150 and 75 foot wide runways. It is just a matter of knowing what your airplane handles looks like that determines what angle you use.
I startered out learning "in line" with the runway what a full stop under breaks,without breaks,touch and go,aborted at flare, having to take off after a short rollout need distance wise and what it takes to straighten it out with the runway during rollout.
Then I took those distances and started looking at my angles to judge what angle I needed to give me the proper length to safely operate in.
If you practice on calm days you pretty much know every distance will be less in a wind because of the slower ground speed.
To me the real key is to be able to put the plane down where you want it to go down so I practice spot landings alot to be able to hit the edge of the pavement,gives you more room on the ground to use to slow down.
I know this one is not the majority opinion here but I still believe three pointers are safer in the wind for this reason.
Every arguement for a wheel landing is to find out if you will have enough rudder to keep your bird under control during the transition but if you three point you ELIMINATE ,DON'T HAVE, DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT OR CONTEND WITH A TRANSITION , it is just simply not there. You land slower thus the lift in the wings is burned off and the weight of the plane is on the tires making it more a part of the ground than the air,ala less susceptible to gusts.
I know you still must carry a bit more speed than a calm day to contend with gust factor but your ground speed will still be slower.
Back to the original question now.I still think the cub is prettier than tcrafts but you could sure never get me to go back to flying one as the tcraft to me is far superior to the cub in any way I could imagine, especially the way it handles crosswinds and gusts. Love my tcraft and will die espousing it's superior virtues to my cub friends!!!!!!!

[tabranch]

Re: max xwind

The decision to three point in gusty situations is not shared by anyone I know.

[TimHicks]

Re: max xwind

I groundlooped my TaylorCraft once. I was flying into Lakefront airport in New Orleans. When I called the tower they told me to report right downwind for runway 36-right, winds 090 (correction 270) at 19. This airport has two parallel north/south runways and one east west runway. So they usually operate on the north/south runways. So the call to report downwind for 36R was totally expected. What caught my attention was the wind speed.
For about 2 seconds, I considered asking for runway 27. But then my brain said to me, "you could use a little crosswind landing practice."

So I set up for 36R. I stuck my left main. No problem. As I slowed, I put in full left aileron. Then slowly the right wheel came down and the left wing came up. Then in a perfectly seamless continuation of this motion, once the right main touched, the left main came off the ground. Fairly slowly, the right wing lowered itself to the ground.

Until this point, I tracked the runway quite well. But when the wingtip touched, the airplane rotated to the right (not into the wind). I ended up stopped 90 degrees to the runway almost in the grass facing East (downwind).

The tower asked if I needed help. But I composed myself and taxiied off.

Checked out the airplane. Some pretty scuffed fabric, but nothing was bent. So I flew home later that day.

Tim

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

I can't figure out why people are scared of three pointers.lot simpler than a wheelie in hairy conditions.
Not stalling on....three point on , they are different creatures.
The other benefit to three point is you are landing in the planes built in lift off attitude so it climbs easier when you need to go around with no attitude adjustment.

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

Ha Tim,
You should have told them you were thinking about adding that to your aerobatic routine and wanted to try it out!
Cool story.

[Darren Lucke]

Re: max xwind

Just out of curiosity... but if it was 090 @ 19kts landing on 36R..... wouldn't that be a right crosswind (you know, the other left)??

It is where I'm from.

Try 19kts gusting 25kts from 190 - dead stick.... over the powerlines, on the uphill - highway (East-West).... been there.... done it.. no groundloop - F21B (still had plenty of fuel, but F21B was designed {found out after the fact - which is no excuse} to run out in level flight instead of me slowing to conserve fuel)... about 2 miles from the airport on a gusty hot day. The plus side of dead stick.... no engine noise to distract your concentration -

Darren Lucke

[dedrekon]

Re: max xwind

Not to be too blunt, but if you don't have wheel landings, 3 pointers and full stall landings in your goodie bag, you need some practice and probably a little remedial instruction. When I'm out just goofing I try to make every landing different.....try to hold a straight line on just one tire (reverse sides for extra points), or thump it down with the full fall out of the sky stall or three point on a mythical dime. It's fun and it helps keep me sharp for tough conditions.

If you really want to work on cross wind technique, you need a Stinson 108-3 with that big ol' tail sticking up. With a stiff breeze they'll ground loop in a 5 mph taxi if you don't have everything just right.....but you can handle a ton of CWC if you have the right chops. Double puck clevelands and 230hp helps too!

Besides all that, I believe if American pilots can't wheel land then Al Qaeda wins.........

v

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

what an idiot..just noticed how I spelled breaks above sorry I will try to break that habit and spell it brakes.
two additional examples for my rationale are these:

1.tricycle gear airplanes carry what would equate to a three point attitude for a taildragger in flare , wouldn't we all laugh if a noseweheel guy landed with a wheel landing attitude because it was gusty? Or does it mean tricycles should only land with a direct or no wind?
2. check out the old war films of the U.S. Navy, no crosswind but pitching and gusting and they were taught to land three point.yes they had to grab the cable with the tail, but it was a controllable way to land under those conditions and the proper attitude was already established for a go around.

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

btw Flyguy,
I use crab angle to tell me about the crosswind. If it is more than I have ever seen ,yikes!
If I have seen the look before then I know it works...the steadier the crab the better obviously ,as in fewer gusts or thermals etc.
Sorry to be so long winded and for putting up with me on this guys
just a topic I love!

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: max xwind

tawadc95;
Your reference to Navy (I suppose carrier planes) isn't an apples to apples anology. Navy Carrier never have a crosswind... the carrier sails flank speed INTO the wind.
Butt low, the Navy planes cross the deck to sieze the wire by their arses. They are torn from the sky as their undercarriage and the deck whomp, bump, and slam together. With a wheel landing... you are trying to sort out the various forces acting upon your ship one wheel at a time. Do as you like of course, however factory test for the certifcations and demonstrated cross wind components are not in a 3 point landing but in a wheel landing. Unless otherwise noted and I've not seen such a note on a Taylorcraft. If one of our venerable historians know different I kindly correct this entry. So if it says demonstrated cross wind component is a factor of X... that X was made in a wheel landing and more than once... usually by a pilot much better than you or I may ever hope to be.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN