max xwind

[flyguy]

Re: max xwind

Hope I didn't give impression that I don't do wheel landings. Sometimes in the winter we have gusty stuff right down the runway. A wheel landing is much more precise for me in those conditions. As I have said here before I really don't like it when I'm flared out and about to touch down and the plane jumps straight up about 10 or 15 feet.
Good discussion.
Darryl

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

I know the carrier does not have a crosswind but as I said it is a very gusty environment with an airport that is pitching and rolling and that three point attitude is and was deemed safe.
I am not saying there is never a place for a wheel landing and I do enjoy a rollout on 1 wheel but when the chips are down it is k.i.s.s. for me.
keep it simple stupid...stupid directed at me not you guys.

[TimHicks]

Re: max xwind

Oops, Darren Lucke is right. It's my other left. In my story above, the wind was from 270, not 090.

[Marv]

Re: max xwind

Not to be too blunt, but if you don't have wheel landings, 3 pointers and full stall landings in your goodie bag, you need some practice and probably a little remedial instruction. When I'm out just goofing I try to make every landing different.....try to hold a straight line on just one tire (reverse sides for extra points), or thump it down with the full fall out of the sky stall or three point on a mythical dime. It's fun and it helps keep me sharp for tough conditions.

If you really want to work on cross wind technique, you need a Stinson 108-3 with that big ol' tail sticking up. With a stiff breeze they'll ground loop in a 5 mph taxi if you don't have everything just right.....but you can handle a ton of CWC if you have the right chops. Double puck clevelands and 230hp helps too!

Besides all that, I believe if American pilots can't wheel land then Al Qaeda wins.........

v

I owned and flew a 108-3 when very few other planes were flying at the airport because of high cross winds. It was the easiest plane to cross wind land i ever flew. You just tilted the wing into the wind used opposite rudder and wheel landed on one wheel. When you ran out of rudder you used the toe brake on that rudder pedal, she landed straight and safe. The heel brakes on the Taaylorcraft is the only thing i didnt like about about my BC12D. Marv

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

Marv,
I have a couple of buddies who have more than one plane in their stable(lucky guys) and 108-3's happen to be one for each of them, they say the same thing.
They feel as comfortable with them in a crosswind as no wind.

[dedrekon]

Re: max xwind

Marv....that was my point. If you're going to fly in big cross winds, you'd better have plenty of technique. If YOU DO, it's not that tough. If you DON'T, get some practice and instruction.

As to the guys who feel as comfortable in a strong crosswind as they do in none flying a 108-3...more power to them. I feel the same way, but frankly NTSB statistics tell a far different story. The only GA airplane with a worse ground loop record is the Cessna 195. The Stinson 108 is number 2. The 108-3 is involved in four times as many ground loops as a Taylorcraft per hours flown.

I personally think the Stinson is one of the great planes in the world. With an 0-470 it's like a fat Super Cub and will get IN and out better than a Maule.

Regards,
Vincent

N43457
1946 BC12D

N46TC
1946 MDL 19 conversion

N6502M
1948 Super Stinson Flying Station Wagon

]

[n6346m]

Re: max xwind

Even though I have replaced just about every part of my Shinn brakes, they are still the limiting factor in how much crosswind my L-2B can handle. Its not the landings that is limiting it's the TAXIING !!! I have a terrible time keeping it straight taxiing in a quartering tailwind it keeps wanting to swap ends like a weathervane especially when flying solo and there is not a lot of weight on the tailwheel. Perhaps I should do like I do in my Stinson Floatplane when I can't get it turned around in a stiff wind, shut it down and sail backwards. IF you are looking for excitement, try x-wind landings on skis or without using brakes at all. I know that a properly maintained Scott 3200 tailwheel can give a good amount of directional control, but at what point does the crosswind override the locking detent?

PS nice pictures!

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: max xwind

For handling more taxi- wind in the L2.... try turning a full 270 degrees in the opposite direction. It's counter -intuitive but some times you gotta get the things moving, the tail wheel seems to lockup or freeze as it works against the wind-on-the-tail. By unloading it, using a little more power... things get moving and once they do... you can get to where you gotta go... by turning someplace you don't want to go. I hope this makes sense. Give it a shot and see what you think. With regards; ED OBRIEN

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

crosswind taxi is a good time for basics too like
1. idle speed....the slower you taxi the safer you will be, so, do you idle to fast
2.aileron and elevator deflections during taxi in the proper positions and don't forget to change the deflections when you change directions
3.facing directly into the wind during run up

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

Ha guys,
just finished reading something interesting from Budd Davisson tonight.
the "three cardinal rules for landing taildraggers in crosswind"
1.keep the nose in line
2.stop drift
3.hold that three point attitude down to the ground

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: max xwind

You hold the 3-Point attitude when you land a wheelie. You can clearly see that he didn't specifically say "land in 3 point." Because, only AFTER you are on the ground do you change that attitude by bringing the tail up. I can't speak for Bud of course but I would suppose that is what he meant.
With regards; ED OBRIEN

[fearofpavement]

Re: max xwind

Well, this thread has certainly provided a certain amount of entertainment but I am not sure exactly what is being accomplished. How someone chooses to land an airplane they are proficient in on a particular runway in a particular set of conditions is up to them. We all have preferred methods of cat skinning but I am not sure convincing someone else that a particular method is better is all that important as long as one gets the skin off...

How one chooses to land their plane should be a personal choice but there should be proficiency in both wheel and full stall landings per FAA regs and we all know they are right.

The thread regarding "on the step" flight has given me even bigger grins and grimaces than this one and I have had to nail my hand to the desk to keep from getting in on it. These topics are a wonderful diversion but now I must go and work on the forklift from Hell.

[flyguy]

Re: max xwind

The fact is that there are for sure two schools on xwind landings in taildraggers. (and likely the twain shall never meet, LOL)

Personally my problem with main gear only landings in a cross wind is that I don't understand what it is the pilot is supposed to use to control the direction of the aircraft in the transition from tail up to tail down.

Both the ailerons and the rudder will work well up on the gear moving at speed, but when you start to slow down and transition, you loose the effectiveness of those controls. That part is just plain physics. (and common sense and experience)

I have a big fat Maule pneumatic tailwheel, and frankly it generates so much side traction that I had to learn to take it easy on the rudders at first because I was all over the runway, overcorrecting. But it has to be on the runway to work.

The only control that I can see that would continue to work well as the plane slows down and the tail comes down is the brakes. While my brakes are as good now as I figure shinn's get I can't quite see having to use them to land, except in cases when the plane is already getting away from me. Let's say they are not exactly a precision tool for me.

I would expect that 2 place Taylorcrafts could be landed ok in up to about maybe 8 to 10 knots at 90* across the runway, UP ON TWO .

I just don't understand what it is, up on two, that you control the airplane with in a higher crosswind than that (AS YOU SLOW DOWN), and I don't have the b*lls to try and find out, what with the cost of replacing airport landing lights and ground loop damage to the aircraft.

Finally what does that say about the efficiency of controlling the aircraft, with the tail up, in lesser crosswinds, if that technique cannot handle higher crosswind "components?"

I there anyone here who lands (more than once LOL) in 15 knots right across the runway with the tail up in the air? How about 18?

Educate and inform me, I am a voice crying in the wilderness of knowledge.

Darryl

[tawadc95]

Re: max xwind

My arguement is not for which one is right or wrong, if you haven't wrecked your method obviously works for you.
What I am trying to get across and apparently ineffieciently is that the three point is so darn simple.
I have watched Budd Davisson land a number of times and he keeps the tail on the ground.Ed sums up my whole premise when he said Budd probably raises the tail after touchdown....if it is already safely on the ground why raise the tail back off to lower it again? To me it is similar to taking the garbage out one bag at a time instead of combining them into one bag.
As for the wheel landing being a test bed for how your plane will handle one wheel at a time......I prefer to "know" it will handle the ground while in the air before I land ,and there are many ways to determine that.
Try to handle an unimproved minimum length strip with bumps and chuckholes and a crosswind while wheel landing and you will be in for rude surprises. You will be tossed back up into the air from a bump and use a whole lot of precious runway settling the plane back down(and our underpowered airplanes don't have alot of room for go arounds at some backarea strips making it essential to be accurate on touchdown point and rollout) or break something. Three points handle these situations well, thus allowing you to land at a broader array of places.
Flyguy we are not that far apart if you ever want to see what I am talking about let me know and we can go up sometime. You can land in a crosswind never having to touch a brake or worry about whether your rudder will be able to control that transition as well as a real hoot being able to fly when others are sitting on the ground wishing.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: max xwind

I certainly agree there is both room for debate and the individuality of the command pilot and plane performance. My L2 has a very light and long back end with small Taylorcraft tailwheel, and almost full forward CG, especially with no passenger in the rear seat. L2 three-points in crosswinds are skittish and bouncy affairs. On the other hand, when I flew a Citabria... I almost always landed 3 point. The Citabria just liked it better. Crosswind or no. My posts have all reflected the same... as I said do what you like and works best.

You can see Budd Davidson on this site and his reference to both kinds of landings: http://www.airbum.com/pireps.html
With regards;
ED OBRIEN