landings and wind

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

hi Kevin,
I know what you are saying about airplanes feeling different.They are designed to have different flight tendencies and characterics as you already know.
but the concept of attitude and speed never change.While attitude and speed vary from ship tp ship concept doesn't so landing principles don't is what I am saying.
We actually have gusts here too and I use control input and power to offset them not speed,that does not negate having to carry extra speed for gust factor obviously.
All I am trying to get at is that in a three point attitude whatever that attitude is for varying aircraft you touchdown slower and with simpler motions eliminating a number of control inputs at a critical time and most importantly with a wing that is done flying.
I do wheel land for fun so I am not opposed to it.I just think when the chips are down simpler is better.
Chris

[Ragwing nut]

Re: landings and wind

The issue Ed you are having with not feeling the tail is that in the L-2 you sit right on top the pivot point of all three axis points rather than in front of or behind in most other aircraft. This gives the pilot a diminished feel of what the aircraft is doing and will take getting use to. Cessna 195's have the same problem. The trick is to continually make small corrections all the time, don;t wait till you feel it needing corrected. By the time your butt feels it, it is usually gone too far as you have described. If you get the opportunity to fly it from the back seat, the L-2 has a COMPLETELY different feel, and you will understand what I mean

I let the aircraft tell me how it wants to land and then stick to it. May sound silly, but when you have to force one especially to wheel land it, it can become difficult to handle if something unexpected happens. Most the BC-12D's I have flown did not like wheel landings unless they had a forwad CG with a -12 installed or the F-21 we had. Our L-2 with the C85-12 would also make good wheel landings as well. Most the time wheel landings are for showing off, but they can be useful in the right set of circumstances.

Mike

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

Hi Mike,
you are right about the L2 and feeling it, it is a more subtle feel to it than others I have flown but I love it now. And I like what you said about the airplane talking to you.It seems everytime I fight with an airplane it is because I am going by numbers so to speak and forget to take a deep breath and listen to what the bird is saying. I went through that with the L2 and now that I am listening to her wouldn't trade it for a million bucks and grin from ear to ear everytime I get in " Sneaky" .

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: landings and wind

Mike;
"feeling" is precisely my problem. Citabria's -- you handle, Cub's -- you respond to, L2's you feel. It's more organic and intuitive particularly at that certain point that makes a safe landing, a great landing. I'm sneaking up on that point but it is a process that one must dedicate themselves to.

For instance -- What is the motor's right note? Note is the right word here because it's the exact pitch that fits for the landing you want. Looking at the tach won't give you the right note. You must know that note with earplugs on and with head phones, and you must know the note without any ear covering at all. Add in the feeling in the rudders, the stick, the brakes, the variations in wind, density altitude -- I know any good Taylorcraft pilot is familiar with all of these items, even if the words differ from the feeling.

While I develop the "feeling" I thank you all, for the words.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

Hi Guys,
One final thought from me on this discussion,sorry!
To clarify,a three point landing is different than a stall on landing.
In a three point you flair to a three point attitude and hold that,full aft stick deflection does not happen till the moment right after touchdown.
In a stall on landing aka short field landing you do have full aft stick deflection before contact with the ground.
The reason I wanted to clarify this is for what Kevin said ,a stall landing is more vulnerable to gusts.It does involve a greater aoa and therefore more drag to overcome for a go around and as I believe Kevin was suggesting is slower to overcome gust forces acting on the plane with.
A threepoint landing has less aoa and less drag than a stall on,it responds better to power input for gust control and acceletates out better if you need to. It is somewhere between a stall on and wheel landing so to speak.
Ed I had a difficult time for a bit in my L2 also with the "appearance" of a flat looking approach. It always looked like the ground was going to race up and smack me but I began to notice it never did. So like mike says I listened to the airplane and I don't mind that "appearance" one bit anymore because it is nothing more than an appearance,the bird touches all three with that flat looking attitude. I guess time and experience with it settled my nervousness over that flat look.

[crispy critter]

Re: landings and wind

Chris,
Well put and I can agree better on this method.....but I still prefer wheel landings in strong wind or gusts.

[LLBOYD]

Re: landings and wind

I have only recently joined the discussion forum, I have been flying a DC-65 for over 40 years and agree that in winds of 25 or better the technique of wheel landing should be used if for no other reason than control. I have flown many aircraft in my career that were somewhat lacking in control feel in the transition from wheel landing to the three point rollout. A Swift for one is somewhat of a hand full with out the steerable tailwheel. A Beech Stagerwing loses about 1/3 of the rudder authority when the tail is lowered. Thank God for brakes amd a tailwheel lock. The L-2/DC-65 have wonderful harmonic controls with a rudder that has plenty of power on that long arm, elevators that are well balanced and the only thing that is somewhat slow is the ailerons but a 36 foot wing is sometimes tough to move. Diligent practice as with any tailwheel airplane is the key. Good pilot technique is honed with practice and all elements of flight should be mastered. With experience you will find these little birds are a delight to fly in any situation. My hat is off to your instructor on his commitment to the three point landing, down here in Texas we normally land downwind when empty and takeoff upwind when loaded this allows for a quicker turn around. I perfer to wheel land a 600 horse Stearman when traveling with the wind.

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

Hi Lloyd,
Same practice here in Ca.with upwind and downwind,whatever gets the plane back to the field quickest.
There is actually still a working Stearman out there ? What crops do you work on?
Chris

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

Mr. Boyd,
My apologies if your name is not Lloyd as I just noticed the B in there,maybe that says something about my flying if I miss a B!
What engine do you have in your L2 and has it been a pretty trouble free plane for you over the years?
I use mine alot and wonder sometimes if I should not so as not to wear it out and preserve it for history. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated as you have seen the long haul with one.
Chris

[crispy critter]

Re: landings and wind

I know you didn't ask me Chris but I have to answer.....they were built to fly so fly the hell out of it......if it wears out then rebuild it,if you don't have the time to rebuild then send or sell it to me and I'll rebuild it. Enjoy it as long as you can .If you park it in a corner with a historical sign around it ,sure people will be able to see it and appreciate it but don't you think they would appreciate and enjoy it more if you could jerk down the sign,run over it on the way out the door and take those same wonderers for a ride in it !!!! Now that's what you call preserving history is when you can let them see it and ride it! Fly and enjoy.....three point or wheelies....who the hell cares as long as we can enjoy it. Good luck my friend and don't put her out to pasture...or some stuffy old museum

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

I am tending to agree with you Kevin,the ww2 vets seem to really enjoy riding in her alot more than looking although they enjoy looking and talking.
Thanks! Chris

[1938BF50]

Re: landings and wind

Kevin....

You nailed it! This is what Brodhead is all about. I still get fogged-up when I see an old vet run his hands along a plane and stand there silently admiring. The mentality of Brodhead is that these old ships were meant to fly not sit in a museum.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: landings and wind

Last weekend I flew my L2 from Denver to Garden City KS. I was chased and cornered by the same thunderstorm system that took out Greensburg KS. That said, I wound up landing several places I hadn't counted on putting down. Cimmarron KS., Lamar CO., and a few more. I met some wonderful people. In this twisting and turning tree top level excursion I flew over numerous farms and around various hamlets. When I'd land, their came an ad-hoc reception commitee of interested buffs wanting to know about my L2. On an otherwise dour lazy Sunday afternoon I was the barnstorming air-show. I got folks who flew the L's in WW2 and Korea. I got great-grandfathers with teenaged boys telling them the stories of their lives.

FLYING an old baby War bird is transfering knowledge and life. It is commuting of more than transient notice but legends, mystery, myths, noise and history. An L2 in the Smithsonian gets little attention. An L2 on the apron of a little airport gets an audience. "Keep'em flyin'!" I found the reason for that phrase this past weekend. When it flies this L2 tells stories that can't be captured in any other fashion and by any other means. It's got noise. It's got lift. It's got character. It's got an 82 year old man spinning the blade for the last time in his life as his great-grandson flinching at the sight. It's got this same old man giving me a thumbs up while this teenager slapping him on the back. It's got both going home and telling everybody what they saw at the airport today! Keep'em flying!

With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

Wow Ed,
Wish I had been along on that ride with you!
It is weird when I get in and leave the ground I can see Germans in the trees, maps and battle plans in a case in the back seat, I feel like I took off from a grass strip hidden by the hedgerows of Europe,bomber streams high overhead and very young men who now can't lift a leg to get in what they made famous.
I feel quite fortunate to have been able to purchase a piece of THEIR HISTORY AND treat it as such. My monument to the greatest generation!
Chris

[LLBOYD]

Re: landings and wind

Chris, we retired the Stearman 2 years ago. Any resemblance to a A75 on these old workhorses is that it is a biplane. Over the years they all did yomen service but after the season of spraying cotton, rice and corn, the winter is rebuild time. The new ships ala AgCats and Thrush Commanders have PT-6's and are airconditioned. Much nicer to work in. I myself have retired from making a living as a pilot as well as my primary vocation as an engineer for ExxonMobil. As for the DC-65, it has an C85-12 with an unique enclosed cowl. My family has had this bird since 1951 and it has had multiple rebuilds. Unfortunately it is not flown that much. I think the TT is about 1700 hours since new. We have had several other aircraft, Bonanza's, a Baron, a Aztec and a B-90 Kingair. The Tcraft was always the fun bird to fly. The only problem we have had was the original A65 lost oil pressure at altitude and by the time we got her down it was toast. That was when the 85 was installed under a one time STC. As I said, I enjoy flying the Tcraft alot, but this restoration will probably require new spare's and ribs in the wings. As for aerobatics I restrict my activity to loops, barrel rolls, cuban 8's and hammerheads. I do not let the hammerhead develope into a tail slide. I don't consider a spin an aerobatic maneuver. These airplanes are tough but they were designed to operate in the +4 and -1.5 envelope. If you fly them between those numbers the Tcraft will alway get you home barring engine issues.