landings and wind

[dedrekon]

Re: landings and wind

Ed,
A little power is essential to a wheel landing. You can plant the wheels at about 60mph and then add in a little power, but you can't hold the correct attitude without it.

Once you get the hang of it, it's quite easy. You'll be amazed how much forward elevator you can use without digging up asphalt....it's far more than you think! Nothing looks cooler than a nice flat wheel landing and holding it there until your turn-off.

Vincent

[mhorowit]

Re: landings and wind

Nothing looks cooler than a nice flat wheel landing and holding it there until your turn-off.

Vincent

Wow! In order to keep the tail up you're traveling at a clip.
So -
1. That has to be a high-speed exit ramp and
2. If you are traveling that fast, you've got to have enough asphalt left to allow the tail to drop of it's own accord (you don't want to force it down because you'll change the AOA and up you go again), then stop. You're going to eat up a lot of landscape, unless I'm missing something. - Mike

[mhorowit]

Re: landings and wind

Mohorowit;
I tried a couple wheelies with power. Although I can't tell you how much power... but a scoosh of throttle all the same. Two things.
1. I seemed to be too flat for my liking. Hanging with not great frontal vision (you know, in that moment just before you stick forward, pop the tail up, and force the wheels to the pavement). I like staying high and crabbing or slipping then centering up as I pass the threshold. Although there more of a chance that you'll "J' the flare this way -- It gives me a good view and keeps me out of trouble incase the engine hiccups.
2. I was uncoordinated on the controls and skipped a bit.
Reducing power while fighting cross wind... is just one more thing to do. As I said, I think I'm a little rough yet for
this one.
That said, it doesn't mean you're wrong. I'm still goofing with it and figuring it out. I can see doing this landing with power manuever in a higher breeze than I had today.
Thanks and with regards; ED OBRIEN

Ed - what are you using for a sight picture to establish your attitude for a wheel landing? First thing my instructor did was to draw a line on the windshield representing the horizon in a three point attitude, then while flying level, draw a second line representing the horizon. That became my "heads-up" display. Perhaps a set-up like that might help you transition from nose high to level - Mike

[dedrekon]

Re: landings and wind

Shouldn't be moving THAT fast if you're doing it right. You can really push that nose down as it slows.
With an 0-200 (and decent brakes) you can lift the tail at a dead stop and that's pretty slow.........


respec
v

[Ron Coleman]

Re: landings and wind

The way I like to do wheel landings is pick a descent speed (100 fpm), throttle back to around 1000 rpm (power is not necessary or desirable unless you are in wind) trim until the descent is constant. The plane will fly itself onto the runway. Attitude is important in the wind. Do not prepare to react to wind changes -that's too late! Keep anticipating wind changes (lean into the next gust). Fly through wind changes and never stop moving your feet. IF they get stopped they will be hard to start again in the right directon.

Once the wheels are on the ground a little forward push will keep the tail up until you are ready to transition to three point. If you have enough down trim, the plane will not spring back into the air and you will not have to fight to get it back down. If the wind is really bad you can get on the brakes as soon as you touch down to quicklly kill off your flying speed. Before you touch down get the right mind set concerning aileron control. Dont wait until a wing tip is up in the air. If you don't like the way it is going, open the throttle, push in the carb heat and fly the hell out of there.

That's what I do.

Ron C
N96995

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

Ed,
Ditch the wheel landings.
My instructor(30,000 + hours in taildraggers with over 23,000 lndgs on strips that most would consider to narrow for a bicycle and up to 100 landings a day) never uses wheel landings. His comment on them is you have to land twice every wheel landing,mains then the tail. Not flashy but after 42 years of cropduting and still going at 73 I believe him as his safety record speaks for itself.
You will have all the rudder authority you need as long as the bird is in the air so the object is to keep the nose in line with your intended rollout while on final and all the way to the ground then when you touchdown in that threepoint attitude you will not need rudder to be as lively as the bird is already straight,you will not need brakes as you will already be going slow from the wind and the wings will not be able to fly due to your slow speed making you far less susceptible to gusts as when you are wheel landing.
Here is what I have learned about my L2 in the wind.
Assuming yours has similar characteristics we know they have a HARD time coming down below 200 foot a.g.l. on windy and or hot days.I run a longer down wind leg to have a longer final; and allow the plane to settle below 200 agl on its own so you don't have to push it through that barrier that seems to build up thus eliminating the build up of airspeed from pushing the nose down and carrying you far past your intended touch down spot.
Make a very patient and smooth flair to a three point attitude then control the descent with power. when you flair to abruptly the plane tends to balloon up 50 foot or so very easily so slow and steady flair.
If you are on a wide runway you can land across the runway making less of a crosswind start on the downwind side and land like normal.
Remember a good touchdown and roll out are the result of a well done approach ,control the yaw and you won't need brakes or huge rudder forces once on the ground and a slower touchdown will always be the result with a straight rollout and wings that no longer want to fly.

[crispy critter]

Re: landings and wind

Mohorowit;
I tried a couple wheelies with power. Although I can't tell you how much power... but a scoosh of throttle all the same. Two things.
1. I seemed to be too flat for my liking. Hanging with not great frontal vision (you know, in that moment just before you stick forward, pop the tail up, and force the wheels to the pavement). I like staying high and crabbing or slipping then centering up as I pass the threshold. Although there more of a chance that you'll "J' the flare this way -- It gives me a good view and keeps me out of trouble incase the engine hiccups.
2. I was uncoordinated on the controls and skipped a bit.
Reducing power while fighting cross wind... is just one more thing to do. As I said, I think I'm a little rough yet for
this one.
That said, it doesn't mean you're wrong. I'm still goofing with it and figuring it out. I can see doing this landing with power manuever in a higher breeze than I had today.
Thanks and with regards; ED OBRIEN

You've also got to consider that Mike is flying BC12D's.....the L2's are a different flying bird.They certinly fly different compared to a BC12D. They are made by the same company,but not the same airplane....like comparing a J-3 Cub to a Piper Colt.

[flyguy]

Re: landings and wind

I rarely have to use a wheel landing, but having said that I have been maybe 3 feet off the ground in a flare for a 3 point and had a gust send me 20 feet straight up. I believe I would have felt more in control had I been doing a wheel landing. I think it is better to have as many options and tricks up your sleeve for landing as possible. A long time duster pilot convinced a friend of mine that you should always use wheel landings for strong crosswinds. The thought just scares the crap out of me, particularly since that friend sometime flies my plane. He is a really good pilot otherwise.
I don't quite understand the use of "nose-down trim" on an approach, especially to get 100 ft/min. with 1000rpm. I must be missing the concept somehow. Would appreciate some clarification on that--always interested in adding new operating modes to my repertoire.
Darryl

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

ha Kevin,
every airplane is different even in the same model but the principles of flight never do as you say.
They all have a speed and attitude at which they must be flown and they all need to be looking straight down the runway at touchdown because the physics of air moving over the wing is the same in each airplane regardless of make and model.
This was a great question from Ed,it has been fun to ponder.

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

Kevin,
more clearly stated here is what I meant in response to what you said about different airplanes.
Indeed they have a different FEEL. But the physics of air are constant so every airplane from a space shuttle to a cub has to operate at a proper speed and attitude in landing. The key being feel and principle are two different things. So while two airplanes feel different in landing they land the same...proper attitude and proper alignment.

[Ron Coleman]

Re: landings and wind

I guess I didn't make clear the down trim advantage. You set up the approach so that you have to hold a little up elevator to maintain the descent at 100 fps. When the wheels touch release back pressure on the stick and the plane will paste itself on the runway. You won't have to shove the stick forward and fight to keep it there. Because of the angle of attack future gusts will plant you on more solidly. Everyone worries about the time of transition from tail up to tail down. By using brakes going from tail up to tail down in a headwind, you can pass through the low rudder authority rapidly and use differential braking for control. There will be no regime where you have no yaw control. You don't go through any high angle attack stall landings. You should have someone hold the wings down or get behind a building.

Don't try this just because I do it!
Ron C
N96995

[flyguy]

Re: landings and wind

Ron,
Got it now. Neat trick. You know I'll HAVE to try it. LOL.
Darryl

[tawadc95]

Re: landings and wind

Ron,
you made my argument for me when you said you can pass through that time of low rudder authority quickly........three pointing avoids that transtion entirely and no brakes are needed.
Chris

[crispy critter]

Re: landings and wind

Kevin,
more clearly stated here is what I meant in response to what you said about different airplanes.
Indeed they have a different FEEL. But the physics of air are constant so every airplane from a space shuttle to a cub has to operate at a proper speed and attitude in landing. The key being feel and principle are two different things. So while two airplanes feel different in landing they land the same...proper attitude and proper alignment.

Chris,
Mike was talking about his instructor drawing a line on the windshield for reference on both types of landings.....that line will be different from one airplane to another depending on how it's rigged. I agree with your theroy all airplanes fly under the same principal but they certainly don't fly the same! Go do wheelies in your t-craft and then jump in a Beech 18 for a few,or a pitts,or ?????. They don't land the same,they don't handle the same,and they don't fly the same. No offence intended.
As for your crop duster buddy who told you never to wheel land.... you guys need to do some flying on the eastern side of the mountains once in a while(or the down wind side),or the east kentucky foothills. The gust mixed with the thermals are always a challenge on less then calm days. Stall landins are no-no's because way too often while your settling into 3 point,3feet off the ground you catch an up draft or a gust that will do anything from rolling you into the ground before you have any chance to react,or you go from 3 feet to 30 feet where the gust simply disappears and you are slower then stall speed and you fall on your nose,or a thousand more different things can happen. If you live in flat land you can get by with stall landings most of the time.
Please don't take my quarral as an insult because that is not my intent...I have flown in every region of this country,most of it in the east ky foothills...I know this from experience. Wheel landings sometimes are the only way in a tailwheel for a safe controlled end to flight. Know how to do them in a manner that keeps you safe and comfortable.

Ed,
Just keep practicing and it will come to you the way you like them...baby steps are the best,Good luck and enjoy.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: landings and wind

I went out all weekend and flew. My problem is I fly high power big engine twins that land themselves and serve you coffee while they do it. SO, I finally got it right in the
L2, or at least better. Wheel landings with a little power and flatter works much better. So my earlier statement on the subject is now officially declared "dumb." How about a "there I was story" from this past weekend.

My brake cable on the left brake broke this weekend. I heard it snap but couldn't sort it out as I was taking off. When I figured it out -- I was airborne, without a left brake, and knew the next landing needed to be a wheelie and rather perfect, as I'm now missing some of my ability to manipulate the plane. Just to add some drama and danger there was a gust front moving in. From a distance I could see it blowing up and heading for the airport. I was in a race to -- figure out the brake issue, beat mother nature back to the field, and land without a left brake. SO -- I landed: Flat, carrying 1200 rpm, perfect wheel landing -- well as perfect as I ever get. Two things. The opinions in this thread may have saved my butt. I am grateful for the knowledge. Knowledge from good folks -- who like to fly -- and share the stories. MHorowit, I particularly appreciate your advice. I followed it and all came out well.

Here's to the best board on the planet -- cheers and well wishes from Ed O'Brien and my recently saved butt!
With grateful regards;
ED OBRIEN