Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

Yes , I had a lot of fun with "Leisa-Marie, The Super-T" she was and still is a non-electric, BC12D , Clip Wing with a 180 HP, Lycoming, STANDARD category cruises at 140 mph ,tows gliders & banner, and does real neat aerobatics.... I did use a handheld and did a lot of listening. On the air show circuit she was known a lot around here by a lot of towers and I got real good cooperation.

[fearofpavement]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

Quote: FAR-wise, why to you need a field approval for a radio installation? Why wouldn't a 337 be sufficient?

The reason for a field approval for avionics installation is that it is an alteration of the aircraft. When the T-Craft was built there wasn't much on the type certificate that would be installed now days radio wise. So since it isn't on the type certificate or original equipment list there needs to be some "approved data" to use as a basis for the installation. If the equipment is specifically STC'd by the manufacturer for that model of aircraft then this supplemental type certificate is the approved data and is referenced on the 337. If there is no STC then the "field approval" provides the authorization for the installation/alteration for that particular instance.

[whake]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

Take a look at my battery installation under "Center Consol' ..I use a Werker 7.5 ampere Hr. battery, available at Batteries Plus. I glued a double cigar outlet from radio shack to the top of the battery. the mail plugs are fused and drive my Icom A-200 radio and my T&B indicator, the radios are field approved. the battery is portable,rechargeable.

[DanBrown]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

As to why do it -- I live within the Washington DC ADIZ. There are 2 airports within a 10 minute drive from my house, but the nearest field outside of the ADIZ is 45 minutes away. For me, a big difference -- if I have a couple hours free time to do some minor maintenance or go flying. IMHO, a transponder is a safety enhancement in high density airspace -- which I would guess overhangs the majority pilots in the lower 48. I've been working a thermal at around 6000' near FDK more than once to see a jet plow by under me and wishing I had some more assurance that he could have seen me on his panel. (The STAR would have him above 8000).

Progress (or lack of) report. Well, I have an approved antenna mounted under the cockpit, and built a box to hold the battery, transponder, encoder, meters, etc.. (picture attached). It all checks out fine, straps between my legs ahead of the seat, and runs the transponder/encoder for 7.5 hours on a 5 amp/hr. However, I found out that my local shop is aftaid to sign it off as it contains non-approved components (battery and meters). I've found that the local GADO is refusing to even consider any such approvals. I'm looking for a avionics tech outside of this area who has a more responsive FSDO to work with. Any thoughts?

I'd be willing to take the box apart and permanantly mount the transponder in the panel, encoder on the firewall if there were an approved small battery that could be removed for charging (or even go with a small approved wind alternator like the BPE-14 Turbo Alternator.

The rub seems to be the battery -- there is apparently no approved aircraft battery less than 25 amp/hr. An overkill and un-necessary weight penalty for
an early t-craft. I wonder if the foundation or some group of us could work with a battery manufacturer to get a STC for a 5 to 10 amp/hr gel cell approved for t-craft. I suspect that once done, it would not take much to approve it for Champs, Chiefs, Luscombs, etc. and have a good market with no competition.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

MAN, That is NEAT! Just the thing for my neighborhood where the suck and blows think no one else should be up in "their" airspace. Can't it be used as a non aircraft part in it's own box like an uncertified GPS velcroed to the panel? Why do you need the approval? Is it the antenna, the fact it is "mounted" or they don't want you broadcasting from a home made system? There ought to be a way around this.
Hank

[DanBrown]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

Hank,

Thanks for the comment. There seems to be a bunch of catch 22s. As I understand it, the transponder/encoder must have a bi-annual signoff to be legal in controlled airspace. My avionics shop reading of the regs says a transponder must be permanantly mounted in a particular aircraft, so they won't signoff the bi-annual unless I get an FAA approved installation via 337, field approval or whatever. If it is permanantly mounted, there is apparantly no way to power it in a no electrical system aircraft.

For any of this the local GADO is not accepting any such applications. See Bill Berle's thread
!)$(^@ FAA SOB's Trying to Shut My 337 down!
for similar frustrations.

So, proceeding in 2 directions now -- trying to find an avionics guy willing to do a bi-annual on a portable box and trying to find a way to get FAA approval for an installation in the aircraft in a different GADO.

[mhorowit]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

Dan - as you are aware, some folks are simply carrying the xponder around in a box and removing it when they leave. What's the matter with that approach? - Mike

[DanBrown]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

Mike,

The rub seems to be FAR 91.413 which requires bi-annual tests of the transponder by "A certificated repair station properly equipped...". Any leads anyone?

[selje]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

How do sailplanes handle this issue?

[VictorBravo]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

How do sailplanes handle this issue?

We were exempt from being REQUIRED to have a TXP as far as the "30 mile Mode C veil" and operations near Class C because gliders have no electrical systems per se. They fall into the same exemption as a non-electric Taylorcraft.

That being said, the glider guys who flew at excessively high altitudes routinely (the so-called mountain wave junkies) mostly installed transponders so they could fly officially at 25-50K altitude using an FAA waiver. These guys were flying for altitude records and such. Because nobody in the FAA really understood the gliders, and nobody wanted to start a big argument over how to certify a battery powered transponder in an experimental sailplane, the transponders just "existed" under a don't ask, don't tell situation.

Those of us who were flying for speed and distance in "thermal" conditions did not have transponders (back in the 1980's at least). Although the thermal conditions would occasionally be able to lift the sailplanes to 22 and 23,000 feet in certain parts of the country, in order to stay legal we would of course have to stop climbing at 17,999 feet.

That is why you'd often hear glider pilots radioing their ground crews "I'm at 17,999 feet heading towards the next turnpoint... conditions excellent!"

THAT being said, the sailplane world enjoys a very slightly gray area in terms of some FAR's, mostly because the "extreme" sailplane operations (racing, wave flights, long XC flights) are almost always pretty far away from Class B and Class C airspace and heavy traffic. It becomes almost a non-issue because the airliners and bizjet traffic is pretty far above us by the time they are out in the desert or the boondocks where we were doing our thing.

In the instances where sailplanes are truly a traffic concern for jet traffic (above 25K), the glider guys and the FAA establish a "high altitude waiver window" and keep everyone at a safe distance.

I had an altimeter malfunction in a sailplane once, probably because of the extremely rapid climb rate under a particularly beautiful cumulus cloud near Hawthorne, Nevada one fine day. Shortly after I stopped climbing at 17,999 feet, this clearly malfunctioning instrument was reading slightly in excess of 23,000 feet. I looked up to marvel at this cloud, which was a thousand feet above me, and saw two HANG GLIDERS about 500 feet higher than I was!

I'll not soon forget that. People wonder why some pilots get hopelessly addicted to soaring...

[navionics]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

[QUOTE=M Towsley;23911]Dan,

I just wanted to educate some member on what 337 is. It is FAA form 337 for recording a Major alteration on airframe, powerplant or accessory. To fill one up you have to have an FAA approved data and file with the FAA. If you do not have an approved data, you submit an acceptable data and require field approval before you release the aircraft to service. As far as transponder requirements are, all aircraft operating within 30NM of a class B airspace are required to have an ATC transponder with an altitude reporting capability and has to be checked within the proceeding 24 months.

navionics N50454 L2M

[fearofpavement]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

[QUOTE=navionics;25032]

Dan,
As far as transponder requirements are, all aircraft operating within 30NM of a class B airspace are required to have an ATC transponder with an altitude reporting capability and has to be checked within the proceeding 24 months.

navionics N50454 L2M

Unless of course it is exempt from the transponder requirements in FAR 91.215(b)(3) as are almost all the pre-F series Taylorcrafts and also most similar planes such as Cubs, Ercoupes, Champs, Chiefs, Stearmans, etc...

[cpirrmann]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

That's a vey nice installation Dan, but like Mike says, why not just keep it portable. A transpnder that hasn't been inspected every two years is better than none, and if you're concerned about the FAA being more responsive on the line than in the office, keep it portable and carry it with you. It could just be an 'oversized intercom' .

[VictorBravo]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

A transpnder that hasn't been inspected every two years is better than none, and if you're concerned about the FAA being more responsive on the line than in the office, keep it portable and carry it with you. It could just be an 'oversized intercom' .

If you get asked about a portable TXP by the FAA, you can always send them a letter that says...

"Well, I could just not have one and complicate everyone's life by demanding that they recognize my exemption, but that would be less safe than what I am doing. The Taylorcraft clearly does not have the panel space or electric system to support a built-in transponder, but I wanted to find a way to increase air safety around this crowded airspace. Would you prefer me to fly without a transponder (which would piss off ATC every time) or do you agree that this portable system is an effective way to at least add MOST of the safety of a built-in certified system? You let me fly a certified airplane with a handheld radio, because it promotes safety and lets me be a good neighbor around all this crowded airspace... if you tell me I can NOT fly with this portable system, you are telling me that you want me to reduce air safety and put more burden on an already overworked ATC system... is that what you said you wanted, Sir?? Since this airplane cannot support a built-in transponder, how would YOU handle operating this airplane in this area with the maximum amount of air safety, Sir? "

Actually I'd write that letter a little differently, but I took too many smart-ass pills this morning

[Richard Boyer]

Re: Transponder in No Electrical System T-Craft

Not to irritate anyone.......

I installed a Transponder in my T. I actually rebuilt the right side glovebox and made one out of aluminum (too thick if you ask me) and permanently mounted a transponder in there (now there is that little XCOM radio in there too). Added 5lbs total to my plane and is a permanent installation. For the guys that don't have an electrical system, it would be easy to just put in a battery to power it when you actually need it and shouldn't cause any fuss every 2 years when they check to make sure it actually works correctly.