New member,wood doors

[N96337]

Re: New member,wood doors

Thanks for the lone reply, Mike...I was hoping for more input.... there seems to be many that want to use it, but nobody can ever seem to give a straight answer as to why.
The gap filling properties would be useful, and like you say, only used in a non-structural application. I have a tub of Aerodux that I use for stuff like that. It's not necessarily approved, but seems to perform much like resorcinol with filler added. I guess if I ever run out, I'll have to give epoxy a look.
Thanks again,
JH

[VictorBravo]

Re: New member,wood doors

Thanks for all the info about T-88 in previous posts. It appears that I made a mistake, with the help of the guy at Aircraft Spruce. I went in there to buy some epoxy with which to bond in the spar root bushings for added security. The guy at Aircraft Spruce recommended T-88, which was available in the small size that I needed.

I am very LUCKY that the gilberti/Harer STC allows for the bushings to not be glued in at all (which was apparently verified by a couple of folks back in the harer STC threads I started some months ago). I used T-88 epoxy to glue these in, thinking that gluing the bushings would add some strength, preventing the bushings from acting like a "splitting wedge". I stand by that logic, however it now appears that the T-88 would not have been the right glue to use.

Fortunately the airplane is legal and apparently built with no glue in the bushings, so I believe I do not have a loss of strength. I would be pretty steamed up if I had built a spar lamination with this glue.

The real problem is that this glue is being sold by aircraft supply houses, and it is easy for the builder to make a mistake. Granted, it is not certified, and granted there appears to be a valid reason. But regardless of whether someone make a mistake and doesn't check into it first (my mistake), there is a certain amount of credibility that major aircraft supply houses have when recommending or carrying certain products.

Worse yet, somebody building a Falco or Volksplane or whatever would be tempted to just go with Aircraft spruce's recommendations and not be bound by certification issues. Yes, I might have been stupid by taking the advice of a guy behind a counter, but there is enough at stake that they should not be recommending it.

Perhaps authorities like Mr. Morfit, who has apparently tested this glue, and experienced folks on this forum like Mike Redpath, should issue some sort of a notice to be spread around through the restoration/homebuilt communities and discussion boards like this. I will. take it upon myself to notify Aircraft spruce about this.

Bill Berle

[Forrest Barber]

Re: New member,wood doors

Don't glue bushings!! especially with that stuff... K.I.SS. works the very best...

[Acroeric]

Re: New member,wood doors

There are some good articles on T-88 and it's loss of strength at elevated temperatures. I must point out that although it is not approved for use in type certificated aircraft it has proven itself for years in many aircraft. Steve Wolf in Ceswell Oregon uses it exclusively in his construction and he is essientially the God of Aircraft Woodworking. Ever see Sean Tucker fly? His wings use T-88, so does Jim Leroy, The H-1 Racer, Delmar Benjamin's Gee Bee, The new Samson and countless others. Ever get burnt with a wooden spoon? Me either. . . it is a great insualtor. No- you still can't use it for certificated stuff that is structural but it sure is easy to use in other applications. Read this little article I bookmarked.. . . . enlightening

http://www.2wings.com/m12/faq/wingfaq.htm#08/04/02%20VARNISH,%20GLUE%20&%20EPOXY

[N96337]

Re: New member,wood doors

Interesting Eric...I'll stick to the old stuff... I pulled off a couple doublers with the heat from a hair dryer that had been assembled with T88. I'm sure it's fine, but I know when it gets hot and bumpy, I don't wanna wonder
JH

[Acroeric]

Re: New member,wood doors

I totally understand- I build my ribs with T-88 then all the doublers on the spars get glued with resorcinol. The plane will be yellow so it should not see the 180 degrees it would take to really give it issues. I like the T-88 for the lack of pressure trquired when glueing gussetts. I still use little nails but not like I would if using a traditional adhesive. When I designed the wood ribs fro the clipwing I did all my failure analysis with only one side of the rib gussetted and intentional poor glue joints with incorrect ratios of part A and B to simulate a worst case situation- It held like a champ and the wood failed first every time. I too have seen epoxy fail- I have had really questionable results with west systems- most likely due to poor mix ratios. In my day job I inspected a plane that had it's wood structures built for 2 years- the west systems epoxy was still very tacky to the touch- again- most likely poor mix ratios.

As for the hair dryer trick- I have done that as well but when I measured the temp coming off the dryer- it was well over 240 degrees at the nozzle. I agree- resorcinol would have tolerated it better. Plywood and peel strength is like loading a capstrip along it's axis with a sharp object. It will split easily and is really not a good measure of the strength of the member.

In reality- it really doesn't matter unless you are experimental (or EXPIRAMENTAL like I recently saw in the window of a $100k RV-8) You are stuck with the old stuff.

[VictorBravo]

Re: New member,wood doors

(or EXPIRAMENTAL like I recently saw in the window of a $100k RV-8)

Spelling and grammar are getting pretty bad everywhere these days, even in some posts in this forum. Thank goodness a Taylorcraft doesn't require its pilot to be literate!

[Ragwing nut]

Re: New member,wood doors

Sean Tucker's wings also get rebuilt every year or two, or used too. Of those who have used T-88, how many have seen it after it is 15-20 years old? I have seen 15-20 year old T-88 assemblies and it scares me. Very brittle. T-88 does not have any binders mixed with it like West Systems does. It is just resin. Perfect example is a concrete floor with rebar or fiber-mesh. Ground will shift and the concrete will split anywhere. Mix fiber-mesh (groundup fiberglass) into the concrete properly and it will never break. I both types of floors in my shop and the fiber-mesh floor is 15 years old with no breaks, the other floor broke inside of 2 years.

West Systems is a COMPLETE system. I will use no other epoxy systems. Wick's does not carry their full line. I buy it directly from Guegon Brothers, the manufacturers.

Mike

[N96337]

Re: New member,wood doors

Eric, (or anyone else, for that matter) have you ever done any tests with AeroDux? I was impressed with the "bad fitting" joints we experimented with.. always broke wood first, and the properties seemed to parallel Resorcinol.
I haven't gotten close enough to any older structures that were using T88.. maybe I was frightened to have them fall apart while I was under them? hahha Just kindding.
I've also had people suggest the Polyester glues to me... and haven't ever taken the time to even try them... anybody here messed with those?
Mike, I put BOTH rebar and fiber mesh in my floor..
JH

[Ragwing nut]

Re: New member,wood doors

Norm G, ship the wood patterns out yesterday. i tried to send you a PM, but says you don't accept. I will try calling later.

Mike

[Norm G]

Re: New member,wood doors

Hello Norm...

I know very little about wooden doors, but you will find several folk on here that I am sure will help you.

Welcome to the Taylorcraft fraternity...have you had occasion to fly one, and compare it with the Champ?

Rob

Rob, I know I answered this question before, but let me have a go at it again. Not only have I had occasion to fly one, I had a 1/5 share in a 1946 T- Craft some 30 years ago. One reason I'm sending this message is to say I have also had the opertunity to fly a Auster in the UK back in 1987 at the Rolls Royce airfield near Darby. The aircraft was G-AMFR. I also got to fly a Tiger Moth the same day G-TIGA. The Fly-in at Rolls was a , I believe a EAA function. At About the same time I attended another fly-in at Nottingham's Tollerton airport were the Tiger Moth called home. If my memory serves my right the local EAA Chapter has it's meetings at a Pub in Leicester an I was invited to attend that. That was great fun having a pint and talking airplanes.The reason I was in the Nottington/ Darby area was because I was working with Rolls on developement of a new joint venture jet engine with Pratt & Whitney.
The information and pictures on your web page has been of great value to me with my 41 BC12 restoration project.

Thanks, Norm

[Robert Lees]

Re: New member,wood doors

That airfield near Derby (pron. "Darby") would have been Hucknall. It's still active & still owned by Rolls Royce.
The fly-in would have been a PFA Strut event (similar to an EAA Chapter).

Rob

[Norm G]

Re: New member,wood doors

Sorry about the Derby vs Darby thing. Hucknall was quite a place back in the late eighties. I was working at Rolls then and there was a outdoor engine test stand in the middle of the field. And another thing was a two place Spitfire in the hangar.
Norm

[Robert Lees]

Re: New member,wood doors

The engine test stand is still there.

I don't know about the RR Spitfire...but it is somewhere, anyway!