gettin' stuff in

[Dusty]

I have no idea what it's called, but is there any way to make the bar that the top of the seat sling hooks into removeable? Slinging jerry jugs and meat bags over that thing turns out to be not so much fun. Seems to me that a couple saddles allowing the bar to come out (and get pinned back into place for flight, obviously) would not compromise the structure, while making my back forever grateful.

Is there an STC? Anyone have a field approval?

[Yellow Duck]

Re: gettin' stuff in

My Maule had something simular to what you are talking about for quick and easy removal. Also I do not believe an stc would be required for this. But check with your IA.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: gettin' stuff in

I REALLY wouldn't go cutting that tube! It is a primary cross brace that spreads the "B" Pillars and could be carring some substantial loads in roll where the wing and strut loads would tend to "collapse the parallelagram" of the aft cabin. I think making it removable without a full analysis of all the laod conditions could be down right dangerous.
That said, I HAVE NOT done any analysis. Just looking at my fabric free fuselage and eye-balling load paths.
Hank

[Dano"T"]

Re: gettin' stuff in

And he's an ENGINEER....and not the kind that drives a train.

[Dusty]

Re: gettin' stuff in

Relax - I'm not getting my hacksaw ready yet! I just asked, is there an STC or FA data (ie, engineering, at least the "wings ain't fell off yet" kind) to support this mod? Surely someone has had the need to put something larger than a briefcase behind the seat sometime in the last 65 years????

YD - I'd think it would certainly need a 337 or an STC - how would you approach it? Maybe we should trade IAs....

[VictorBravo]

Re: gettin' stuff in

They're right... that tube is an important structural member. You MIGHT be able to make a mod to have it removable, but it will not be a simple mod. I have heard some talk about the existence of a 337 or STC on this, but some people in this Forum will know a lot more about it than I do. My advice: don't do it. Put the effort into some sort of a ramp or see-saw board or something that lets you load your junk in the back over the existing tube.

[Dusty]

Re: gettin' stuff in

VB - why wouldn't a pin, done correctly, be just as strong as an intact tube? I guess that's the question that would be addressed by the STC/FA data, if such a critter exists.

I spent a fair bit of time Sunday trying to stuff a little bitty caribou rack back there - ain't no way in hell a moose rack is going to fit with that tube in place. I have my doubts about frozen wolves, or even lynx. A Zodiac won't fit (but the outboard will, given enough patience).

Anyone ever strap stuff to the struts? Looks like they're about as tough as Cub struts - should work fine, but I'd like to not be the original test pilot on that one if possible....

[Dick Smith]

Re: gettin' stuff in

Dusty, this link http://taylorcraft.info/tcraft/lagra17.jpg shows one of the latest Taylorcraft fuselages, built without the tubing behind the seatback...you can see the truss design on each side, at the rear door posts. There is one Experimental F-19 I've flown that is built this way. It's not a simple job. You might consider getting rid of the sling-type seat and installing 2 individual removable seats. ( A freighter pack-frame and a sleepingbag in a stuffsack makes a good temporary seat) on the right side. (Maybe cut the sling in half, leaving just the left side for yourself, thus creating a void on the right side). Without the right seat in place, you can work odd-shaped stuff into place and can stack serious weight right where it needs to be. Dick

[VictorBravo]

Re: gettin' stuff in

I am not an engineer, so I can't say exactly how that tube is loaded. But I do suspect that using just a pin would allow it to rotate and it is not supposed to rotate.

If anything, i'd think you could weld matching three-bolt round flanges on the ends of the tube and the fuselage uprights, and that would carry the same strength across the fuselage as well as supporting the pilots.

But removing and installing six nuts and bolts every time you wanted to fly might be a bigger pain in the ass than the fixed tube.

I have no doubt that certain items have been lashed to wing struts up in the great whie north on occasion. I'd just be damn sure to lash them as close to the fuselage as possible so they don't create assymetrical drag problems.

[Dusty]

Re: gettin' stuff in

Dick: Thanks for the image. That's way more weight, time, and energy than I'm willing to invest!

I like the idea of individual seats - that would help, but it'd still be a PITA. At least I could go through the seat instead of over it.

I'm envisioning a saddle - a tube split lengthwise and reinforced - sticking out both sides where the crosstube drops in and pins. It would not be free to rotate. However, I'm not an engineer and don't play one on TV - I'll cuss and hurl things over the seat back if I can't find an approved way of dong this. I really thought this would be a common thing!

The flange idea isn't bad - I don't need that tube out every time I fly.

Yes, things have been lashed to the struts. My other ride is a Champ and the struts are _chincy_ so I don't have much experience with things heavier than snowshoes there. I can also stuff 2 55gal drums in the back - I've never really ran out of volume with it. Anyway, the proper place to lash external loads is above the jury struts. I might know of a cubdriver who's hauled a (small apartment size) electric dryer out there with no problems....

[Richard Boyer]

Re: gettin' stuff in

LOL!!! Wish I had a picture of THAT!!!!!

Richard Boyer

[Robert Lees]

Re: gettin' stuff in

A quick search of the FAA STC database shows nothing....

[VictorBravo]

Re: gettin' stuff in

Put something out by the jury struts that creates any significant amount of drag and see just how fun your airplane is to fly....

When the rudder runs out of authority at 30 or so MPH in a stall situation and that drag is still out there pulling the wing back, you can have a spin that is not able to be overcome with the rudder.

You will have to balance the drag equally between the jury strut location by having two identical objects hanging out there. Then think about the effect the disturbed airflow has on the stabilizer.

It's not as easy as it sounds.

[Dusty]

Re: gettin' stuff in

AK rudders must work better than LA rudders - a 1/4" bend in the trim tab is about what it takes to compensate for moose antlers if you don't like flying around with a rudder held down.

I'd suggest not practicing stalls with an external load, and my tcart is sure stalling at 30.

think about the effect the disturbed airflow has on the stabilizer

That's why loads go out by the juries.

[flathorn]

Re: gettin' stuff in

Dusty -
I don't know if you got the information you needed on making the back seat tube removable, but I did that to mine by 337.
It involved cutting the tube in 1-1/2'" on either side, drilling a hole in the remaining stubs (vertically, top to bottom), buying a tube to match circumference of the old one and cutting it so it forms a collar over the old stubs, drillling holes to match up the ones in the stub, so that it sits on the stubs and is securely pinned with a removable pin from top to bottom.
I have a WordPerfect file of the 337 we submitted, if you'd like to look at it. It's hard to explain without the diagram, or seeing it in person.
There are several different ways to do this, but don't do the mod which, while beautiful to look at and real slick for putting in loads, involves cutting out the tube and remaking the seat back so it hinges to the seat bottom and folds forward for easy access to the baggage. A friend did this to his T-Craft, but FAA rejected it and made him either weld it back in place or modify the pin arrangement. Their reasoning was that in an accident, his arrangement might allow the seat back to come forward on the pilot. So he pinned his top to bottom, as mine, so his set-up now has no advantage over mine, and possibly weighs more, with the increased bracing.
PM me if your interested in that file. It might take me a week to get it as it's at my homestead. It really is worth doing, as I used to have real problems hauling gas jugs in and out, and now I can even put those 15 gallon jugs in fairly easily.
One other mod I'm seriously looking at is an external door to the baggage. I've seen it on one T-Craft, the one Charlie Center owns, and he did it by 337. But that one is still a hypothetical for me.
Kathy
3585T