Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

[mhorowit]

Folks - If there is/are sections in the FAR/AIM concerning tailwheel opns (including proping), could you please cite them? - I'm looking .... - Mike

[CraigH]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

Mike,

All I could find related to propping is in the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook.

It's on the web in PDF format. This section contains the portion on hand propping:

http://av-info.faa.gov/data/traininghandbook/faa-h-8083-3a-2of7.pdf

Once you get it pulled up (takes a few minutes even on high speed) do a search on propping. Should take you to what you're looking for.

Best of luck on your meeting with the Feds.

[Steve Green]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

Mike,

I did a search of the Summit Aviation database collection, and came up with the following:

No hits in the FAR's or AIM to "hand prop", "hand propping", or "hand propped".

Two hits in Airpland Flying Handbook; Chapter 2 and definitions. This would not be regulatory, but probably considered a "standard of practice", or words to that effect, as it is an FAA publication. Kind of like the AIM is "not regulatory".

Hit in the FAA "Accident Prevention Publications", Preventing Accidents During Aircraft Ground Operations [FAA-P-8740-20], Propeller Accidents

Hit on all the Practical Test Standards, where the candidate is expected to be knowledgable about "hand propping safety awareness".

Hit on AC43-16A Aviation Maintenance Alerts, January 1982, "Caution", "Hand Cranking Aircraft Engines.

I can forward any of this to you if you do not have access to them. It is not too much text.

[mhorowit]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

Steve - I think the Handbook will be adequate - Mike

[denny]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

There is no FAR rule for hand propping, but several FAA documents. I copied a couple of sections you should read. Knowledge will get you thru this.

FAA-S-8081-14A PRIVATE PILOT Practical Test Standard
TASK: ENGINE STARTING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25, AC 91-13, AC 91-55; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to recommended engine starting procedures. This shall include the use of an external power source, hand propping safety, and starting under various atmospheric conditions.
2. Positions the airplane properly considering structures, surface conditions, other aircraft, and the safety of nearby persons and property.
3. Utilizes the appropriate checklist for starting procedure


Reference AC 61-23 Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical
Because of the hazards involved in hand starting airplane engines, every precaution should be exercised. The safety measures previously mentioned should be adhered to, and it is extremely important that a competent pilot be at the controls in the cockpit. Also, the person turning the propeller should be thoroughly familiar with the technique. The following are additional suggestions to aid in increasing the safety factor while hand starting airplanes.

The person who turns the propeller is in charge, and calls out the commands, "gas on, switch off, throttle closed, brakes set." The pilot in the cockpit will check these items and repeat the phrase to assure that there is no misunderstanding. The person propping the airplane should push slightly on the airplane to assure that the brakes are set and are holding firmly. The switch and throttle must not be touched again until the person swinging the prop calls "contact." The pilot will repeat "contact" and then turn on the switch in that sequence-never turn the switch on and then call "contact."

For the person swinging the prop, a few simple precautions will help avoid accidents.

When touching a propeller, always assume that the switch is on, even though the pilot may confirm the statement "switch off." The switches on many engine installations operate on the principle of short circuiting the current. If the switch is faulty, as sometimes happens, it can be in the "off" position and still permit the current to flow to the spark plugs.

Be sure to stand on firm ground. Slippery grass, mud, grease, or loose gravel could cause a slip or fall into or under the propeller.

Never allow any portion of the body to get into the propeller arc of rotation. thìs applies even though the engine is not being cranked; occasionally, a hot engine will backfire after shutdown when the propeller has almost stopped rotating.

Stand close enough to the propeller to be able to step away as it is pulled down. Standing too far away from the propeller requires leaning forward to reach it. This is an off-balance position and it is possible to fall into the blades as the engine starts. Stepping away after cranking is also a safeguard in the event the brakes do not hold when the engine starts.

When swinging the propeller, always move the blade downward by pushing with the palms of the hands. If the blade is moved upward, or gripped tightly with the fingers and backfiring occurs, it could cause broken fingers or the body to be pulled into the path of the propeller blades.

When removing the chocks from in front of the wheels, it should be remembered that the propeller, when revolving, is almost invisible. There are cases on record where someone intending to remove the chocks walked directly into the propeller.

Unsupervised "hand propping" of an airplane should not be attempted by inexperienced persons. Regardless of the experience level, it should never be attempted by anyone without adhering to adequate safety measures. Uninformed or inexperienced persons or nonpilot passengers should never handle the throttle, brakes, or switches during starting procedures. The airplane should be securely chocked or tied down, and great care should be exercised in setting the throttle. It may be well to turn the fuel selector valve to the "off" position after properly priming the engine and prior to actually attempting the hand start. After it starts, the engine will usually run long enough with the fuel "off" to permit walking around the propeller and turning the fuel selector to the "on" position.


Good Luck.

Denny of Oakland

[mhorowit]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

There is no FAR rule for hand propping, but several FAA documents. I copied a couple of sections you should read. Knowledge will get you thru this.
Good Luck.
Denny of Oakland

Thanks Denny - MIke

[alwaysoar]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

I think that it would be very important to have the Taylorcraft POH with you when you visit the FAA as well as the weight and balance. In the T-Craft POH, I believe it also states that you will find the weight of YOUR aircraft on a 337 so you should have your A/C logs as well as your own pilot logs to show your current flight review. Obviously, not all 337's show the weight because there may not have been a weight change for that particular "major alteration or repair," but I would go back through them and find the most recent one that shows the weight. I would also know basic empty weight vs. licensed empty weight. A/C certified prior to 1978 would be certified as licensed empty weight. You should have a library of materials when you see them for reference, but I would know the starting procedures as given in the POH verbatim. As someone said earlier, no BS

[Robert Lees]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

the Taylorcraft POH

I'd like to see that too!

[mhorowit]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

I plan on bringing everything; especially Denny's quotes on handpropping; I want him to know I'm serious.

Monday morning at 0800 is my appointment. Details when possible. - MIke

[alwaysoar]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

Rob, You can get T-Craft handbooks from Univair. There's not much to them. Do you want a copy?

[NC36454]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

Mike,
As I mentioned earlier, you should at least discuss this with an attorney before talking to the FAA. Otherwise, I would only answer questions asked directly (volunteer nothing) and only produce documentation specifically requested (volunteer no documents).

We jokingly refer to "the friendly folks at the FAA" but I assure you, they are not your friend. (otherwise you wouldn't be jumping through these hoops) I'm certain that many will disagree with my comments but the FAA can decide that in the future you should sit on the sidelines and watch the rest of us fly.

I'm only trying to help...

Your Friend,
Ken

[flyguy]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

If it was me I would get an attorney who is versed in FAA bureaucratic B.S. and take him with me. It will even the playing field. If you cannot get one in time, ask for a delay and tell them why. It will put things in the right perspective. I have written Repair Station Manuals for them and you can never underestimate their intelligence nor overestimate their vendictiveness. Just my personal experience and opinion.
Is that too mean?............................Nah, my givadamn's busted.
Darryl
P.S. Take a tape recorder with you, that will frost their backsides.

[lktiller]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

I must echo the "volunteer nothing" and "carry nothing" except what is asked. And a good attitude. If they ask you for more documentation then promise to provide that (only if you have it) at the next meeting. Legally you cannot withhold information that is in your possession, but provide it only if they ask.
They are trained to ask leading questions. Answer everything truthfully but keep the answers short and to the point. Don't elaborate.
Answer questions with an attitude to learn. If you are not sure of an answer, say you're not sure and ask them to explain. Not with a confrontational attitude but with an eagerness to learn.
When they explain a situation, ask questions that will show your interest in learning more. Don't ask for chapter and verse because they will provide! Rather ask them to explain the text and the interpretation.
Realize it will boost a fellow's ego if he can teach something he knows very well to you. It will also help your position when they make a report to their superiors that you were eager to learn about safety.
There's not a one of them but will respond positively to a good attitude. They know the rules and will use them. They are not your friend but your attitude can make them friendly.

Asking for forgiveness helps too!!!!! I've gotten out of more than one traffic ticket by approaching the officer with an apology. Then thanking him for setting me on the safe path. Sincerity is detectable !!!!

Safety is a huge topic with the FAA. Promise to study the material they provide and keep that promise.

Watch for an opportunity to mention that you are a member of the Taylorcraft Foundation & support group. They also look kindly on EAA & AOPA membership and other support groups because they are aware of the quality of advice that comes from these groups. These old airplanes just don't have modern documentation, it isn't available and they know that! So if you hem&haw around trying to provide something that can't be substantiated they will know.
(I think I will write a book!!!)

Best of luck to you.
Larry Tillery

[Guest]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

I must echo the "volunteer nothing" and "carry nothing" except what is asked. And a good attitude. If they ask you for more documentation then promise to provide that (only if you have it) at the next meeting. Legally you cannot withhold information that is in your possession, but provide it only if they ask.
They are trained to ask leading questions. Answer everything truthfully but keep the answers short and to the point. Don't elaborate.
Answer questions with an attitude to learn. If you are not sure of an answer, say you're not sure and ask them to explain. Not with a confrontational attitude but with an eagerness to learn.
When they explain a situation, ask questions that will show your interest in learning more. Don't ask for chapter and verse because they will provide! Rather ask them to explain the text and the interpretation.
Realize it will boost a fellow's ego if he can teach something he knows very well to you. It will also help your position when they make a report to their superiors that you were eager to learn about safety.
There's not a one of them but will respond positively to a good attitude. They know the rules and will use them. They are not your friend but your attitude can make them friendly.

Asking for forgiveness helps too!!!!! I've gotten out of more than one traffic ticket by approaching the officer with an apology. Then thanking him for setting me on the safe path. Sincerity is detectable !!!!

Safety is a huge topic with the FAA. Promise to study the material they provide and keep that promise.

Watch for an opportunity to mention that you are a member of the Taylorcraft Foundation & support group. They also look kindly on EAA & AOPA membership and other support groups because they are aware of the quality of advice that comes from these groups. These old airplanes just don't have modern documentation, it isn't available and they know that! So if you hem&haw around trying to provide something that can't be substantiated they will know.
(I think I will write a book!!!)

Best of luck to you.
Larry Tillery

Larry, good advice for all of us, thanks, Dave.

[mhorowit]

Re: Would someone please point me to the FAR on propping?

Thanks to everyone contributing -
See my thread elsewhere on the outcome - Mike